German Shepherds Forum banner

Thread for the old timers—linebreeding

8K views 68 replies 13 participants last post by  Sabis mom 
#1 ·
I’ve been researching and Learning about different lines and pedigrees etc etc and I have questions about line breeding. Not looking to become a breeder or anything of that type but as far as pedigrees go, how far back does line breeding actually make a difference. Is a 5-5 really having that much influence on the dog in front of me?? How much line breeding is too much? I’ve see. Some breedings, from a big kennel with a 2-1. Seems too close to me but what do I know? Please feel free to voice opinions. Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#2 ·
I'll let more people post personal experiences but here's a decent article on COIs. Also I love discussing this so feel free to pm me if you want to further discuss. I'm not an old timer so don't want to derail the thread too much.


 
#3 ·
a species is an isolated population because it may only reproduce unto itself. There are only so many canidae genes in total, because they all descend from the same common ancestors. Breeds are just isolated micro-populations within the species at large.

one may not "outbreed" within an isolated population, because every individual within an isolated population is already related. Therefore one may only attempt to effectively MANAGE inbreeding depression, and ultimtely the only way to do that is by linebreeding.

In my experience genepools seem to be somewhat "circular." It's kind of like politics and how anyone who leans too extreme in any direction ends up "circling" all the way around to the other side without even realizing it. If that makes any sense?

Unfortunately I don't KNOW about linebreeding gsd specifically, because I haven't done it yet. I can say for certain that early on in the breed's history (way back in the database) both inbreeding and very close linebreeding were common. The fact that breeders eventually ceased such practices leaves me no alternative but to assume that at some point doing so created serious problems. If it hadn't caused problems, they'd have had no reason to stop. Furthermore I can clearly observe examples of "introgression" in every modern gsd type, and no breeder goes to all that trouble until they need to.
 
#4 ·
I think the impact of line breeding depends on knowing if the dogs being line breed on have demonstrated from their own breedings, if they tend to throw dominant genes for desirable traits. It becomes more complicated because a dog that is line bred on has been breed to different dogs and it is an educated guess as to whether the dog line bred on or the dog he/she was bred to is largely responsible for producing the desired traits. That is why many breeding are really experimental unless and until a breeder has a program to develop his own lines and doesn't just sell pups, but follows them closely or holds back entire litters to see what is produced. The vast majorty of breeders won't due this due to time and expense. That is probably why some of the early military programs (DDR and z PS) had a good sense of what they were producing because they were able to breed for prepotency due to being under thumb off communistic regimes who told you what you had to do. Another thing to consider, even though the further away a dog is generationally from the breeding pair, the less genetic influence he or she will have, back massing on dogs significantly beyond five generations can have an effect on outcome. I believe in the future it will become a moot point because advancement of knowledge and technology will remove all the guesswork. In people it has ethical implications, but not so much in dogs.
 
#5 ·
In case anyone here isn’t already well aware, Chip is WAY out of my league with the ddr z ps stuff, so I’ll preface in hopes everybody understands just who it is they’re talking to now. I come from a long line of byb. I’m talkin’ barefooted, bare chested, old overalls wearin’, old hank listenin’, old redman plug spittin’ OLD TIME byb. And even I find it disconcerting that all modern gsd go back to the same couple/few bottlenecks anymore. But like it or not, those bottlenecks are all that define the modern gsd.
Once you get good at reading gsd peds, you can learn a lot by studying other breeds. For example, spend some time studying high performance bsd peds and you’ll find some real linebreeding. The fact that gsd are no longer linebred the way high performance bsd are linebred may suggest the modern gsd has become “overbred.” The 2019 sv bszs video below may support that hypothesis as well?

To my eye it couldn’t be more readily apparent those dogs may only be intended for use as seedstock, engineered to crossbreed x bsd dsd etc. Conformation snobs who espouse the virtues of breed purity in this day and age only unwittingly foot the bill for the real breeding programs.


559031

Y chromosome = nuclear dna. When I study a ped, I look for repeats in the Y slots. AKA “linebreeding.”

559032

mtdna = x chromosome (mitochondrial dna). Here I look for biological diversity. The more numerous unique mtdna ancestors the ped contains, the more biologically diverse the ped is.

559033

if you sit down with a handful of peds and plan just a few generations out, you’ll see for yourself how quickly the stuff in the middle just gets lost forever (ancestor loss coefficient, AVK).

559034

the goal of the old time byb is to “target” the Y chromosome (nuclear dna), yet build the entire pedigree on some (hopefully) unique ancestor x chromosome (mtdna). I deliberately inbreed nuclear (Y) AND deliberately outbreed mitochondrial (X) at the same time, in an attempt to effectively manage inbreeding depression.

be forewarned: when done properly the above illustrated old time byb formula WILL require some old time byb culling. The earlier, the better. Even on christmas day. If you have to ask, you don’t want to know. Need I say this is not a recipe to turn a profit selling puppies to pet homes? Any attempt to do so will only cost you very dearly.

we’re strictly on the hunt for day 51 vpat aces here, and that requires proper weaning. Failure to wean properly puts even the best individual at a very serious disadvantage.

*note: when calculating inbreeding/ancestor loss coefficients, always leave a blank slot behind every name in the ped, regardless of how many generations you’re calculating. Failure to do so will skew your results.
 
#6 ·
I'm just saying that because the East German Army and the Czech Border Patrol owned the dogs in their breeding program and they generally were not sold as pets and had stations where they could be raised and evaluated, they had a much better opportunity to see what each breeding produced and could experiment with different breeding practices and see the results. In the working lines, the gene pool has been expanded some by breeding West German dogs to East German/Czech/Slovak dogs. The European show line dogs are essentially cookie cutter dogs. Riser used to have an article on RSV 2000 that was a study that supported that the working lines and the show lines were essentially separate breeds genetically speaking. One approach to breeding is to pair pedigrees with dogs that were producers of producers. Of course you have to define what you consider a good product. And you still have to have a good idea of what dominant genes that are desirable are likely to be thrown by each dog in a pedigree. Having said that, I have never bred a dog because I believe you would have to be independently wealthy to do it correctly and have a very knowledgeable full time staff to raise, train and evaluate the dogs. I also think it would take several generations of breeding many dogs to get a particular result that was consistent. The one breeding program that I know of that has been doing this for years is Jinopo in the Czech Republic and the owner was a breed warden at one of the z Pohranicni Straze stations and went commercial after the border patrol program shut down. But IMO, even with his knowledge base of his lines, he has morphed his lines into a more commercial dog that is different from what they were originally. I am sure that is driven by market demands and prices he can get for dogs going to families or individuals are much higher than what he could sell dog to the police and military for. The general public is looking for a more diluted version of what the early dogs from Eastern Europe were like. But there are some small scale breeders who have a good understanding of what their dogs tend to produce and produce some very nice dogs.
 
#7 ·
Yes, genetics can come through the generations. To see it, you have to know your bloodlines and personally know the dogs. A lot of breeders don't ever get beyond the second or third generation. Others just import breeding females already bred and sell the puppies. So they never know what they are producing. In order to truly know you have to keep them close by and watch or hold progeny back.

But the answer is yes. Genetics can absolutely come down. Mannerisms, structure, looks, it can all come down through the generations.
 
#10 ·
Yes, genetics can come through the generations. To see it, you have to know your bloodlines and personally know the dogs. A lot of breeders don't ever get beyond the second or third generation. Others just import breeding females already bred and sell the puppies. So they never know what they are producing. In order to truly know you have to keep them close by and watch or hold progeny back.

But the answer is yes. Genetics can absolutely come down. Mannerisms, structure, looks, it can all come down through the generations.
the question is how many generations does is “come down” not if it does. 3 generations, 5 etc etc.
 
#9 ·
The other side of the coin in terms of producing some of the best police and military dogs is evident in Holland where non FCI Mal/DS X's are bred. They are not purebred and more so in the past, dogs like pitbulls, Rottweilers, Great Danes, etc. were out crossed to which added hybrid vigor and often produced some super dogs and improved or added certain traits to the gene pool.. I would say GSDs are probably out crossed to more these days, one reason being Rottweilers and Great Danes have been ruined as working dogs.. I believe it is illegal to out cross to pit bulls in Holland, but e-collars are banned and they are definitely used and not the way they are typically used in the states. Dutch trainers, IMO, tend to be a combination of the best and worst trainers, but they are training for a sport that requires minimum control and precision and use KNPV as a way to produce police dogs. They tend to focus a lot on bite work and building the dog up in that area and control later using severe compulsion.
 
#11 ·
Why would there be a limit as to how many generations genetic traits can pass down? Go to pedigree database and pull up some random dogs of any breeds and look at some of the physical traits that are passed down from many generations ago. If you have access to people who know the dogs, they can tell you about behavioral traits passed through the generations.
 
#14 · (Edited)
So then why haven’t all of toms progeny who had ipo handlers had the same successes? There’s obviously limitations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A lot of factors can be involved. Have you established what percentage of Tom's success was due to Tom's genetics and what was due to his training and handler? Just what traits did Tom posess thst contributed to his success? Was he prepotent for those traits? How about the females he was bred to and all of the dogs behind them? How did they factor in?

Barring a mutation, can any dog possess a trait that has not been inherited from its ancestors be that ancestor two or ten generations back? Where did those ancestors get it? Did they inherit them from dogs six generations before? Ten?
 
#18 ·
A lot of factors can be involved. Have you established what percentage of Tom's success was due to Tom's genetics and what was due to his training and handler? Just what traits did Tom posess thst contributed to his success? Was he prepotent for those traits? How about the females he was bred to and all of the dogs behind them? How did they factor in?

Barring a mutation, can any dog possess a trait that has not been inherited from its ancestors be that ancestor two or ten generations back? Where did those ancestors get it? Did they inherit them from dogs six generations before? Ten?
And yes, it can. Depending on recessive traits that may have never surfaced before. So are you just commenting to comment or do you have something meaningful to add to the discussion. Obviously genetics play a part. But how much is lost and what are the benefits/downfalls of linebreeding. Don’t you import dogs? Based on what??? The dog in front of you or the pedigree? That’s what Im getting at


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#20 · (Edited)


it may EASILY all come down to the simple matter of who reared the litters and how. If the peds checked out, and for that matter even if they didn't, odds are somebody dropped the ball from wean to evaluation

"the appx 3 weeks from wean to vpat are hypercritical because at that age they are like little sponges"

breeders in the know don't like to share that info because it creates very stiff competition in the marketplace
 
#32 ·
hmm...that black dog producing black show lines was most likely my comment since my friend owns him. That dog is from a genetically dominant black dog. Not a black dog in the woodpile. Now, whether another breed was brought in generations ago that has dominant black in there is a question I've never gotten an answer too. They did develop inside the Soviet Block but it could be a mutation.
 
#35 ·
it takes a lot more than a ped to work. The conditioning that occurs between weaning and vpat is THE FOUNDATION upon which a trainer builds after vpat. You can't expect ANY pedigree to perform in such an environment unless the pup was conditioned for it very early on. Good dogs are not born, they are built. Bite and prey building should begin @ weaning.

I wish you'd just come right out and asked your question directly in the first place.
 
#36 ·
it takes a lot more than a ped to work. The conditioning that occurs between weaning and vpat is THE FOUNDATION upon which a trainer builds after vpat. You can't expect ANY pedigree to perform in such an environment unless the pup was conditioned for it very early on. Good dogs are not born, they are built.
Ok. Your other threads were a little difficult for me to follow and your insight on this one seems to do nothing but derail so please refrain from commenting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#41 ·
Slightly off topic but you’re usually pretty flexible about that.

I am interested in this linebreeding topic as well. I'm less interested in the 3,3 linebreeding verse 5,5 linebreeding. Genetics are wonky and I bet even with the best breeder, it’s still a game of chance.

What interests me is comparing 3,3 or 5,5 linebreeding with a kennel that is actively creating their own line. To the lesser extent the kennels like DDR, ie state sponsored programs working towards one goal. I am specifically referring to the kennels creating a line of their own with their own stock and who follow the progeny and chose from them for their sequential breedings.

I would imagine these kennels would be more likely to create the dog they are aiming for than linebreeding a 5,5. But what about a 3,3?
And if you are looking for a specific type of dog, are you more likely to get it with a dog linebreed on a known producer or with a kennel (which functions as stated above) whose breeding goals match yours?
 
#42 ·
Slightly off topic but you’re usually pretty flexible about that.

I am interested in this linebreeding topic as well. I'm less interested in the 3,3 linebreeding verse 5,5 linebreeding. Genetics are wonky and I bet even with the best breeder, it’s still a game of chance.

What interests me is comparing 3,3 or 5,5 linebreeding with a kennel that is actively creating their own line. To the lesser extent the kennels like DDR, ie state sponsored programs working towards one goal. I am specifically referring to the kennels creating a line of their own with their own stock and who follow the progeny and chose from them for their sequential breedings.

I would imagine these kennels would be more likely to create the dog they are aiming for than linebreeding a 5,5. But what about a 3,3?
And if you are looking for a specific type of dog, are you more likely to get it with a dog linebreed on a known producer or with a kennel (which functions as stated above) whose breeding goals match yours?
Ah hah! I am usually very flexible. You’re right. Especially within reason. You get the question and that expands on my question. That is the kind of discussion I am trying to create and learn from. And you’re right. About my flexibility. It’s sort of on pause bc this is a topic which within a little wiggle room I’d like to stick to bc honestly I want to know the answer. Honestly I don’t think there is an answer. I think it’ll be largely opinionated with little facts but certain things won’t help the discussion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#46 ·
I know that in terms of line breeding, a 5-5 or 4-4 is like moving the dog up one generation. So a 5-5 line breeding is like having that dog in the 4th line of the pedigree, or so I was told. As for how likely that dogs traits are to appear, it depends on the breeding. Obviously there is going to be some loss as the dog moves further back, which is what makes the dogs up close important. The likely hood of a particular dog's traits carrying on depends on how dominant they are. Some lines carry stronger than others, which is why some great dogs aren't great producers. I'm no expert, so I could be completely wrong. Maybe @wolfstraum will have more info.
 
#51 ·
@Nscullin

If you like this illustration I can make more going farther into inbreeding/linebreeding pairings and such. Here is a 6 (not 78 lol) chromosome mockup for my sanity. Each circle chromosome set stands for a sperm or egg cell. The two columns illustrate the chromosomes and chromosome sets.

3 sets with 2 chromosomes in each set. There will only be 3 chromosome, one from each set, in every egg or sperm cell. (I'm leaving out crossovers and other complications. A crossover would be if for example the white gene moved onto one of the black chromosomes.)

There could be more combinations than just the 4 sperm cells I did for the male. Just trying to give decent variety. For example you could have 1 blue chromosome and two black chromosomes. If you notice puppy #4. He carries none of the desired genes from the desired male. So it doesn't matter if you linebreed on him, the genes aren't there. Puppy #3 carries some sort of "bad" gene from the male, so if you linebreed on him you're more likely to get whatever that bad trait is.

559070
 
#52 ·
After all these explanations/answers what do you come away with?

I'm a Computer Scientist by trade, and I can tell you clearly that this is an NP Complete problem...which means, not solvable by a computer of any strength! Too many unpredictable variables!

It's why breeding is a respected art! It is not, and will never be clear.

But as berno said previously, many dogs need to be culled along the way...sad, but true...

Good news is lots of the culled dogs make great companions.

So in the end, it's a good thing...

I don't want dogs that live only 7-10 yrs. I'm done with that!!!

Just a few years back, it seems like more like 12 to 16 might have been more accurate, 7 to 10 now, no!
 
#53 ·
After all these explanations/answers what do you come away with?

I'm a Computer Scientist by trade, and I can tell you clearly that this is an NP Complete problem...which means, not solvable by a computer of any strength! Too many unpredictable variables!

It's why breeding is a respected art! It is not, and will never be clear.

But as berno said previously, many dogs need to be culled along the way...sad, but true...

Good news is lots of the culled dogs make great companions.

So in the end, it's a good thing...

I don't want dogs that live only 7-10 yrs. I'm done with that!!!

Just a few years back, it seems like more like 12 to 16 might have been more accurate, 7 to 10 now, no!
There are some really awesome programs when evaluating livestock etc. It isn't 100% obviously but it does a ton of good. You can make massive improvements in production system with EBVs. Obviously we'd need to be careful to also maintain genetic diversity and avoid too many popular sires.


Things we could rate on:
Health (OFA scores of that dog and as many of it's progeny as possible. This part is key, you need see how the produce.)
Longevity, don't add in dogs that died of unnatural causes. (Hit by a car etc.)
Temperament. This one is more difficult, but in my head you'd use temperament testing on your litter of puppies and add their scores in. For proof it would be simple enough to video the temperament test. HIGH heritability on temperament so it would be an important one.

Reproduction traits
Litter size: Difficulty of birth, if the mother produced enough milk or not, if she had maternal instincts or not

I think I remember seeing a website where somebody was trying to track some of that for GSDs? The important thing is getting a large data pool.

The reason I would consider Penhipp as a breed test is apparently they have a high success rate for predicting hip dysplasia and you get to compare your dogs to the average of the breed.
 
#57 · (Edited)


This is a sore spot for me personally because the pup I'm training wasn't reared properly. Good genetics are only 1/2 the formula. If breeder doesn't do his part from wean thru vpat, litter will never rise to full potential. You don't need that much yard to do it right. Dedicated breeders get it done in much smaller spaces.
@ wean introduce a bunch of seesaws, tunnels, balls, tugs, springpoles, ramps, toys etc. Don't leave it all the time or pups get bored. Just a couple hrs at a time, and they go crazy exploring. Stash treats to foster hunt drive, start building ball drives, carefully break out the reizangel to start building prey and bite. When pups tucker out, take the gear away. When you return the gear, it will be exciting for the pups again. Try to reconfigure, add, build, as you go, in order to create new challenges for the pups..
Next week start them running to build endurance. Run them over obstacles to build confidence. Continue as directed until vpat and you will have a litter to be proud of. Best ped on the planet will fail if breeder drops the ball. Worst ped on the planet will succeed if breeder follows thru.
I forgot to mention imprinting and sound sensitivity. You want to condition a litter with some sort of snapcracklepop! (whatever you can get away with onsite)and the best time to do it @ feeding. Litter will quickly begin to associate "bang bang = kibbles and bits."
 
#58 ·
Look, not every dog in a litter will turn out well. You can have puppies in a litter that look exactly like the father and than there is that one puppy that looks just like the mother within the same litter. You are extremely lucky when you get one dog that is the same or better than the father and it is extremely rare to breed a dog that is better than the father.

There are males that are known to reproduce themselves but it will not work if you don't have a solid mother.
 
#60 ·
when I watch that video carefully I can spot the underachiever early on. @ 33 it actually retreats momentarily. When it finally catches up to the rest of the pack @ 1:07 note how it looks to the breeder before engaging. Obviously that individal is not ipo3 material, but that's beside my point. I've learned not overestimate nature, and I've learned not to underestimate nurture.
SchH was encoded in gsd dna @ the breed's founding, but you can't expect any dog to just "organically" ipo based on the fact that it is "purebred." The entire process begins with a knowledgeable breeder @ wean. Again, this is the only real difference between import pups vs import genetics whelped in usa.
I think perhaps my apparently "unique" perspective on this issue comes from the fact that I haven't even looked @ a gsd for over 20 yrs. To be honest I learned quite a bit fooling around with other breeds during that time, and I have to admit doing so really "demystified" gsd for me.
I say the following not to troll or offend, but strictly on behalf of the breed. 20 yrs later I return only to find even more bogus health screens, more complicated breeding schemes, far less genetic diversity, and the breed in far worse shape than when I walked away from it over 20 yrs ago. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind gsd was THE greatest breed of dog ever created by man, and I'm glad I won't live long enough to witness it's bitter end. Granted that's awfully harsh, but re-reading this thread leaves me with a sense of... I don't know... I should probably just edit/delete this last paragraph... it certainly won't do any good... I'll post it because I want my testimony to be archived in cyber perpetuity...

cheers, everybody!
 
#66 ·
These puppy playgrounds will not make up for poor genetics. They just won't. If you have weak genetics, it will show, and no matter how much you expose, you will always see it.

You can have a puppy in a litter that was pushed down by it's littermates and it seems like it's a weaker puppy but once they are taken out of the litter and put into a home, they start striving and can actually end up being stronger than the strongest puppy in the litter.
Also, sometimes you have a puppy that appears very strong. He's the bully, that bullies every puppy, likes to be on top of other puppies but a lot of times, that pup turns out to be rather nervy.
Then you have a super nice puppy, that shows all the qualities you could ever want in a puppy and all of a sudden, they just fizzle out with maturity.
Also, these playgrounds will not make up for true exposure and exploration. I get more out of puppies with exploration and exposure than sending them over these obstacles in order to get to food. Let them make their own experiences, let them climb, dig, jump, explore naturally. You can toss these obstacles out and they will use them during play. All of these puppy courses are more gimmicks to impress buyers.
 
#67 · (Edited)
All of these puppy courses are more gimmicks to impress buyers.
Tons of breeder wisdom in Tikkie's post above. Decades, obviously. And Tikkie is 100% correct about breeders using cute puppy playgrounds as a marketing tool. Breeders, I assure you, 99.999% of puppy shoppers want absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with any of what I've been talking about. The kind of pups I'm talking about raising are the overwhelming majority of puppy buyer's "worst nightmare."

I've only been explaining that "ben ipo3's" pups won't ipo themselves unless you rear them specifically for protection sports. If you want to compete in protection sports, you best buy a pup from a litter that was bred weaned and conditioned specifically for that purpose.

seriously, how many buyers even think they want a dog like that? 1 in 1000? 1 in 5000? and of those 1 in 1000 or 5000, how many are actually equipped to handle it? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 20,000? Forget about it. There is no profit margin to be had whatsoever.
 
#68 ·
  • Back to answer the original question, yes genetics come down from many generations back. When looking at the line breeding, you need to look at what dogs are being back massed on. There are many health issues beginning to pop up more and more, and when looking at the pedigrees, you will see the same dog, over and over 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 generations back... 6, 8 even 10 times or more... That definitely is genetics coming through numerous generations. That's one of the reason's I prefer no line breeding in the first 5 generations. You are cutting down on the back massing and getting better genetic diversity in the breed. My two cents worth, anyways.
 
#69 ·
This thread is terrifying! Lol. I'm not that smart.
Here is a few things to consider though. All canines who pack produce litters of 4-6 pups on average, usually closer to 3-4, and these pups are born programmed to the position they will hold in a pack. Domestic dogs do this as well but have artificially large litters.
Linebreeding has always been used to solidify traits but you solidify the good and the bad, inside and out. And few people ever stop to consider the impact some traits will have on ALL the pups in a litter.
Linebreeding has been used for centuries in horses and livestock, but they produce ONE offspring per breeding and have longer gestations so if you do a breeding and the results are less then acceptable you know this before you get in too deep. With dogs you produce 8? pups and what now?
As far as how much is present in generations down the road that depends on so many genetic and environmental factors that there is no way to tell, and throwbacks are really a thing because of this. you also need to factor in that dogs can and will evolve and develop traits FAST! Like in 2 generations fast.

So dog A is bred to dog B and dog C who where raised differently and born into different positions. Both bitches produce litters that look like Dog A. All 16 puppies go to different owners and circumstances and none act like Dog A. Breeding continues through two more generations and then the owner of Dog A gets a pup descended from the original breeding and that pup is the spitting image, inside and out, of Dog A and people jump to the throwback thing. In reality one pup, generations down, carried the right genetics and was raised in the same manner and held the same pack position at birth.

High prey drive, just as an example, may work in a beta dog but in an omega is going to cause issues. Again just example. But if the beta is raised in a chaotic or neglectful environment and the omega is raised with steady and consistent handling they will present very differently again. But then you breed both dogs. So what issues have you created there?
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top