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Discussion Starter #1
I’ve been researching and Learning about different lines and pedigrees etc etc and I have questions about line breeding. Not looking to become a breeder or anything of that type but as far as pedigrees go, how far back does line breeding actually make a difference. Is a 5-5 really having that much influence on the dog in front of me?? How much line breeding is too much? I’ve see. Some breedings, from a big kennel with a 2-1. Seems too close to me but what do I know? Please feel free to voice opinions. Thanks!


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I'll let more people post personal experiences but here's a decent article on COIs. Also I love discussing this so feel free to pm me if you want to further discuss. I'm not an old timer so don't want to derail the thread too much.


 

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a species is an isolated population because it may only reproduce unto itself. There are only so many canidae genes in total, because they all descend from the same common ancestors. Breeds are just isolated micro-populations within the species at large.

one may not "outbreed" within an isolated population, because every individual within an isolated population is already related. Therefore one may only attempt to effectively MANAGE inbreeding depression, and ultimtely the only way to do that is by linebreeding.

In my experience genepools seem to be somewhat "circular." It's kind of like politics and how anyone who leans too extreme in any direction ends up "circling" all the way around to the other side without even realizing it. If that makes any sense?

Unfortunately I don't KNOW about linebreeding gsd specifically, because I haven't done it yet. I can say for certain that early on in the breed's history (way back in the database) both inbreeding and very close linebreeding were common. The fact that breeders eventually ceased such practices leaves me no alternative but to assume that at some point doing so created serious problems. If it hadn't caused problems, they'd have had no reason to stop. Furthermore I can clearly observe examples of "introgression" in every modern gsd type, and no breeder goes to all that trouble until they need to.
 

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I think the impact of line breeding depends on knowing if the dogs being line breed on have demonstrated from their own breedings, if they tend to throw dominant genes for desirable traits. It becomes more complicated because a dog that is line bred on has been breed to different dogs and it is an educated guess as to whether the dog line bred on or the dog he/she was bred to is largely responsible for producing the desired traits. That is why many breeding are really experimental unless and until a breeder has a program to develop his own lines and doesn't just sell pups, but follows them closely or holds back entire litters to see what is produced. The vast majorty of breeders won't due this due to time and expense. That is probably why some of the early military programs (DDR and z PS) had a good sense of what they were producing because they were able to breed for prepotency due to being under thumb off communistic regimes who told you what you had to do. Another thing to consider, even though the further away a dog is generationally from the breeding pair, the less genetic influence he or she will have, back massing on dogs significantly beyond five generations can have an effect on outcome. I believe in the future it will become a moot point because advancement of knowledge and technology will remove all the guesswork. In people it has ethical implications, but not so much in dogs.
 

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In case anyone here isn’t already well aware, Chip is WAY out of my league with the ddr z ps stuff, so I’ll preface in hopes everybody understands just who it is they’re talking to now. I come from a long line of byb. I’m talkin’ barefooted, bare chested, old overalls wearin’, old hank listenin’, old redman plug spittin’ OLD TIME byb. And even I find it disconcerting that all modern gsd go back to the same couple/few bottlenecks anymore. But like it or not, those bottlenecks are all that define the modern gsd.
Once you get good at reading gsd peds, you can learn a lot by studying other breeds. For example, spend some time studying high performance bsd peds and you’ll find some real linebreeding. The fact that gsd are no longer linebred the way high performance bsd are linebred may suggest the modern gsd has become “overbred.” The 2019 sv bszs video below may support that hypothesis as well?
To my eye it couldn’t be more readily apparent those dogs may only be intended for use as seedstock, engineered to crossbreed x bsd dsd etc. Conformation snobs who espouse the virtues of breed purity in this day and age only unwittingly foot the bill for the real breeding programs.


559031

Y chromosome = nuclear dna. When I study a ped, I look for repeats in the Y slots. AKA “linebreeding.”

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mtdna = x chromosome (mitochondrial dna). Here I look for biological diversity. The more numerous unique mtdna ancestors the ped contains, the more biologically diverse the ped is.

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if you sit down with a handful of peds and plan just a few generations out, you’ll see for yourself how quickly the stuff in the middle just gets lost forever (ancestor loss coefficient, AVK).

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the goal of the old time byb is to “target” the Y chromosome (nuclear dna), yet build the entire pedigree on some (hopefully) unique ancestor x chromosome (mtdna). I deliberately inbreed nuclear (Y) AND deliberately outbreed mitochondrial (X) at the same time, in an attempt to effectively manage inbreeding depression.

be forewarned: when done properly the above illustrated old time byb formula WILL require some old time byb culling. The earlier, the better. Even on christmas day. If you have to ask, you don’t want to know. Need I say this is not a recipe to turn a profit selling puppies to pet homes? Any attempt to do so will only cost you very dearly.

we’re strictly on the hunt for day 51 vpat aces here, and that requires proper weaning. Failure to wean properly puts even the best individual at a very serious disadvantage.

*note: when calculating inbreeding/ancestor loss coefficients, always leave a blank slot behind every name in the ped, regardless of how many generations you’re calculating. Failure to do so will skew your results.
 

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I'm just saying that because the East German Army and the Czech Border Patrol owned the dogs in their breeding program and they generally were not sold as pets and had stations where they could be raised and evaluated, they had a much better opportunity to see what each breeding produced and could experiment with different breeding practices and see the results. In the working lines, the gene pool has been expanded some by breeding West German dogs to East German/Czech/Slovak dogs. The European show line dogs are essentially cookie cutter dogs. Riser used to have an article on RSV 2000 that was a study that supported that the working lines and the show lines were essentially separate breeds genetically speaking. One approach to breeding is to pair pedigrees with dogs that were producers of producers. Of course you have to define what you consider a good product. And you still have to have a good idea of what dominant genes that are desirable are likely to be thrown by each dog in a pedigree. Having said that, I have never bred a dog because I believe you would have to be independently wealthy to do it correctly and have a very knowledgeable full time staff to raise, train and evaluate the dogs. I also think it would take several generations of breeding many dogs to get a particular result that was consistent. The one breeding program that I know of that has been doing this for years is Jinopo in the Czech Republic and the owner was a breed warden at one of the z Pohranicni Straze stations and went commercial after the border patrol program shut down. But IMO, even with his knowledge base of his lines, he has morphed his lines into a more commercial dog that is different from what they were originally. I am sure that is driven by market demands and prices he can get for dogs going to families or individuals are much higher than what he could sell dog to the police and military for. The general public is looking for a more diluted version of what the early dogs from Eastern Europe were like. But there are some small scale breeders who have a good understanding of what their dogs tend to produce and produce some very nice dogs.
 

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Yes, genetics can come through the generations. To see it, you have to know your bloodlines and personally know the dogs. A lot of breeders don't ever get beyond the second or third generation. Others just import breeding females already bred and sell the puppies. So they never know what they are producing. In order to truly know you have to keep them close by and watch or hold progeny back.

But the answer is yes. Genetics can absolutely come down. Mannerisms, structure, looks, it can all come down through the generations.
 

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Wouldn't all breeds benefit by the 7/8 rule? This strict requirement of 3 generations of documented purebreds is killing this, and other breeds! Sad, but true...
 

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The other side of the coin in terms of producing some of the best police and military dogs is evident in Holland where non FCI Mal/DS X's are bred. They are not purebred and more so in the past, dogs like pitbulls, Rottweilers, Great Danes, etc. were out crossed to which added hybrid vigor and often produced some super dogs and improved or added certain traits to the gene pool.. I would say GSDs are probably out crossed to more these days, one reason being Rottweilers and Great Danes have been ruined as working dogs.. I believe it is illegal to out cross to pit bulls in Holland, but e-collars are banned and they are definitely used and not the way they are typically used in the states. Dutch trainers, IMO, tend to be a combination of the best and worst trainers, but they are training for a sport that requires minimum control and precision and use KNPV as a way to produce police dogs. They tend to focus a lot on bite work and building the dog up in that area and control later using severe compulsion.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Yes, genetics can come through the generations. To see it, you have to know your bloodlines and personally know the dogs. A lot of breeders don't ever get beyond the second or third generation. Others just import breeding females already bred and sell the puppies. So they never know what they are producing. In order to truly know you have to keep them close by and watch or hold progeny back.

But the answer is yes. Genetics can absolutely come down. Mannerisms, structure, looks, it can all come down through the generations.
the question is how many generations does is “come down” not if it does. 3 generations, 5 etc etc.
 

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Why would there be a limit as to how many generations genetic traits can pass down? Go to pedigree database and pull up some random dogs of any breeds and look at some of the physical traits that are passed down from many generations ago. If you have access to people who know the dogs, they can tell you about behavioral traits passed through the generations.
 

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Why would there be a limit as to how many generations genetic traits can pass down? Go to pedigree database and pull up some random dogs of any breeds and look at some of the physical traits that are passed down from many generations ago. If you have access to people who know the dogs, they can tell you about behavioral traits passed through the generations.
So then why haven’t all of toms progeny who had ipo handlers had the same successes? There’s obviously limitations.


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the question is how many generations does is “come down” not if it does. 3 generations, 5 etc etc.
559052

Occasionally throwbacks appear to emerge randomly. If you're in the market for something specific look for what you want on both sides of a ped (behind both parents). Old time byb rule #1. calculate everything in terms of 1/8's (great grands and nearer.) But an 1/8 is an 1/8 is an 1/8, and I've seen 1/16's line up where there were enough of them present. Old time byb rule #2. BEWARE OF ANOMALIES! I cannot strongly enough emphasize rule #2.


genes are like this many dice



purebreeding and linebreeding are about narrowing the odds down to fairly predictable results


Few wolf pups are destined to become the alfa, because wolfpacks depend on more betas doing most of the work, in order to survive. I suspect this explains the variety of temperaments exhibited in every litter of domestic dogs. Like it's just "naturally programmed" into the genome or whatever. That said, not every wolfpup is destined to reach maturity, let alone reproduce. Many are simply destined to become a light lunch. Nature applies considerable selection pressure in order to ensure the future of the species.
 

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So then why haven’t all of toms progeny who had ipo handlers had the same successes? There’s obviously limitations.


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A lot of factors can be involved. Have you established what percentage of Tom's success was due to Tom's genetics and what was due to his training and handler? Just what traits did Tom posess thst contributed to his success? Was he prepotent for those traits? How about the females he was bred to and all of the dogs behind them? How did they factor in?

Barring a mutation, can any dog possess a trait that has not been inherited from its ancestors be that ancestor two or ten generations back? Where did those ancestors get it? Did they inherit them from dogs six generations before? Ten?
 

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So then why haven’t all of toms progeny who had ipo handlers had the same successes? There’s obviously limitations.
did tom come from your breeding? did you properly wean and condition tom's offspring @ weaning thru vpat?

the appx 3 weeks from wean to vpat are hypercritical because at that age they are like little sponges

the old nature vs nurture is a fallacy. It takes both to ipo well.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
A lot of factors can be involved. Have you established what percentage of Tom's success was due to Tom's genetics and what was due to his training and handler? Just what traits did Tom posess thst contributed to his success? Was he prepotent for those traits? How about the females he was bred to and all of the dogs behind them? How did they factor in?

Barring a mutation, can any dog possess a trait that has not been inherited from its ancestors be that ancestor two or ten generations back?
That is my exact question to you and the reason for this thread. He was simply mentioned as a well known dog, commonly line bred. Don’t ask me the questions I’m seeking answers to. Unless you doing so is you also admitting that you don’t know.

Did tom 3 generations back bring more success than 5 etc etc. is there any real data? Idk. Hence this thread. Answering my questions with questions is not productive.


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Discussion Starter #17
did tom come from your breeding? did you properly wean and condition tom's offspring @ weaning thru vpat?

the appx 3 weeks from wean to vpat are hypercritical because at that age they are like little sponges

the old nature vs nurture is a fallacy. It takes both to ipo well.
Lol. No. Definitely not from my breeding. I don’t breed.


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Discussion Starter #18
A lot of factors can be involved. Have you established what percentage of Tom's success was due to Tom's genetics and what was due to his training and handler? Just what traits did Tom posess thst contributed to his success? Was he prepotent for those traits? How about the females he was bred to and all of the dogs behind them? How did they factor in?

Barring a mutation, can any dog possess a trait that has not been inherited from its ancestors be that ancestor two or ten generations back? Where did those ancestors get it? Did they inherit them from dogs six generations before? Ten?
And yes, it can. Depending on recessive traits that may have never surfaced before. So are you just commenting to comment or do you have something meaningful to add to the discussion. Obviously genetics play a part. But how much is lost and what are the benefits/downfalls of linebreeding. Don’t you import dogs? Based on what??? The dog in front of you or the pedigree? That’s what Im getting at


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That is my exact question to you and the reason for this thread. He was simply mentioned as a well known dog, commonly line bred. Don’t ask me the questions I’m seeking answers to. Unless you doing so is you also admitting that you don’t know.

Did tom 3 generations back bring more success than 5 etc etc. is there any real data? Idk. Hence this thread. Answering my questions with questions is not productive.


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Sorry, misunderstood your comment. I do know.

It's is not a black and white issue. It depends on the females he was bred to as well as nature's hand. It's about recessive and dominant genes.

Not sure if it was here or another forum but I remember a black and red WGSL bred to a black that produced black puppies. Sure 'nuff, 8 generations ago there was a black dog in the sire's pedigree that silently passed through eight generations. If it's genetic, it had to come from somewhere.
 

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it may EASILY all come down to the simple matter of who reared the litters and how. If the peds checked out, and for that matter even if they didn't, odds are somebody dropped the ball from wean to evaluation

"the appx 3 weeks from wean to vpat are hypercritical because at that age they are like little sponges"

breeders in the know don't like to share that info because it creates very stiff competition in the marketplace
 
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