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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Context for video:

This was checking to see how well Sonny could out in a relatively high arousal situation. I was hoping he could out just on the verbal command - I thought he'd be able to. He had on a prong and an e-collar set to level 10 (max is 100). I planned to gently nudge him with the prong and e collar if he didn't out on the verbal (I didn't expect him to have as much trouble outing as he did). If he needs more than a nudge with either of these tools to out, my take is that he is not ready to be in that biting scenario. I'm trying to get where he will out on a verbal command alone, and I want to get there with as little conflict as possible. After this video, we redid the exercise with a bite pillow. He did great, outing with just a verbal command. Then we did it with a leg sleeve, but I was holding it instead of having it around my leg. He was in a nylon choke at the time, and would not out on just verbal in this scenario. A little pressure from the choke helped with the outs here, and it didn't take much pressure. As a side note, just in case it comes up - why am I applying constant pressure with the prong? Honestly, I ran out of ideas. I know for a fact popping the prong would have amped him up. Had I known he was going to have this much trouble, I'd have put him in a choke collar from the start. The pressure on the prong was not to restrict oxygen (obviously it's too light for that), and was an attempt at a reminder to out without negatively reinforcing the fight. Again, not the best tool for the situation.

In my backyard, he is great on leg sleeves. I can amp him up, and he outs on just verbal commands. It's a fun game. Once we are in a new environment, he get's way more excited, and he is like in the video. By sitting I was hoping to make it a more boring picture compared to standing. I've gotten him doing great outing on leg sleeves in the backyard, but it's not translating to a more stimulating environment. I have ideas on where to go from here, but would love any thoughts if anyone has some.

Also - how do you deal with leakiness?? I always reinforce being calm and quiet, but he whines and fidgets a ton when he's aroused. Overall I'm having a great time with him, learning a ton. He's only 18 months - getting bolder as the days go on and also biddable and likes to work.

 

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I am new to this so don’t trust me. My two cents are that your dog doesn’t really understand “out”. “Out” means no touch after out. Maybe some lower drive tug game helps. No idea how to make dog better on out immediately with verbal
 

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Outing isn’t the time low level stim. If you are going to use corrections for outing, it needs to be higher in the vein of positive punishment vs negative reinforcement. Lower level nagging correction s tend to make it worse. Based on this video I would say working on outs is a step too far right now. He needs impulse control around the sleeve. You were doomed to fail based on the fact that he couldn’t even contain himself around the sleeve in the first place. Use the nylon slip. When he goes for the bite before you want him to, based on whatever want him cueing on, choke him off with the slip and place back in position with the command. Only give him the bite once he’s under control. Once you have that, then I would move to the out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Outing isn’t the time low level stim. If you are going to use corrections for outing, it needs to be higher in the vein of positive punishment vs negative reinforcement. Lower level nagging correction s tend to make it worse. Based on this video I would say working on outs is a step too far right now. He needs impulse control around the sleeve. You were doomed to fail based on the fact that he couldn’t even contain himself around the sleeve in the first place. Use the nylon slip. When he goes for the bite before you want him to, based on whatever want him cueing on, choke him off with the slip and place back in position with the command. Only give him the bite once he’s under control. Once you have that, then I would move to the out.
makes sense…we can practice this and slip the sleeve. Any tips on how to keep him quiet in the presence of a sleeve? Lots of whining, barking, little shifting movements…he only gets to bite when hes quiet, but there’s a lot of time between the bites that im wondering about.
 

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makes sense…we can practice this and slip the sleeve. Any tips on how to keep him quiet in the presence of a sleeve? Lots of whining, barking, little shifting movements…he only gets to bite when hes quiet, but there’s a lot of time between the bites that im wondering about.
Leaking is a tricky one and a very delicate balancing act to fix. As you work on the impulse control and containing himself, it should improve. I have a friend who had to work through some terrible leaking from his dog. I’ll ask some things that worked for him.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Leaking is a tricky one and a very delicate balancing act to fix. As you work on the impulse control and containing himself, it should improve. I have a friend who had to work through some terrible leaking from his dog. I’ll ask some things that worked for him.
Ok thnx…Sonny isn’t terribly leaky thankfully, and maybe we’ll just end up accepting some of it. I agree itll get better as his impulse control improves, as it already has to some extent and we have a long way to go. Im thinking ill continue practicing outs in lower arousal situations. Once impulse control is in place in higher arousal situations, we’ll work on the outs there
 

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This is why it is extremely important to teach the OUT as a puppy... you out, and the game can continue... until I decide that it's time to stop. The ball, tug, toy, etc... is mine and you are only allowed to play with me with it.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
This is why it is extremely important to teach the OUT as a puppy... you out, and the game can continue... until I decide that it's time to stop. The ball, tug, toy, etc... is mine and you are only allowed to play with me with it.
He knows the out and does it well in many situations- there’s some details in the original post. The difficulty comes in at high levels of arousal on leg sleeves. That being said, if I could go back I would lay a better foundation during puppyhood.

Just spitballing. One thing we’ve used while upping the difficulty is to have something to strike. Out on sleeve, reward to tug or even another sleeve. We all know he wants the sleeve but maybe less conflict to tell him what he can have.
I like this - outing off one sleeve and going straight to the other. We also need to work on downgrading to a tug. I would like to try that as soon as we’re ready. Once he can hold himself together around the sleeves and cap well, we will try it out.
 
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