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Discussion Starter #1
this dog was quiet popular with my mentor/peer group back in the day. just thought it would be interesting to discuss what you think about this training and this style of dog - please not too arrogant or condescending about how much better you think you are now in a modern context.

it is about training theory and methods and its's progression/evolution.

this dog is absolutely for real and was a true working dog in his day.

 

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Discussion Starter #3
yr same questions prompted my posting the vid. so my answer is...????


sse those boys in the background towards the end, they are not easily impressed but they used this dog.
 

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He doesn't seem really quiet to me.
 

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The only thing I can think of, is he's pulling the dog to "help" the dog pull the decoy to the ground to teach the dog to pull down once on the bite. A friend of mine is an old German trainer and he has done something similar with his young dogs. He just doesn't toss his decoys around as much.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
or put his foot down on the decoys back while pulling the dog backwards on the bite??

the training seems to suggest maximising harm to bad guy as oppossed to just neutralising the threat with minimum force to achieve compliance??
 

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so what is this -- border dog?
sure the dog has fight and seems clear -- but to this "discuss what you think about this training" I say what training? what? training? . I see zero control.
 

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The dog had great control, when he wasn't being jerked around. I feel sorry for his neck/trachea! He transitioned well, wonder if his bark was inhibited by the constant neck pressure.
 

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The training looked bad, not even an out on the dog, so judging from that clip neither dog or training are impressive.
 

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This video shows some work that is often done with finished police dogs. I don't know that I would classify this as training as much as I see a dog working a suit. I see plenty of police dogs worked like that in training refresher days. Obviously, this dog is a serious dog that has been trained to do man work....without understanding the purpose or standard of his training, it is impossible to tell quality. He is intense, he works the suit, a nice dog, but this video tells little about training methods to discuss.
 

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Cliff , they would be so finished and I don't mean in a polished refined state of training , I mean finished as in you're out of here ! Not in a civilized society. Maybe back in the shameful days of early civil crowd control - may those days be gone forever . But the association with this kind of oppressive use of dogs delayed or prevented many communities from getting approval and budgets.

This dog on the you tube , I have no idea what it is supposed to show or prove.

This dog would never certify .

This handler would never certify.

Use of leg and foot as leverage to yank dog off a bite !? --
no control .

This dog would not pass a schutzhund trial , a ring trial , a mondio , or knpv trial . Not with this behaviour which I attribute to training , lack of , -- no connection to handler either .

KNPV met lof , which I know , one a gsd whose sister is on my pedigrees, and foreign visiting guests with knpv dogs --- control is outstanding . Hard , I mean seriously hard "violent" aggression ---- but clear and clean outs -- without drive taking a dive . just a sample
 

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Carmen, there is no training going on in the video to what I see. I have seen countless dogs worked like this in training modules. The same dog will or will not out when called upon. No this is not what you should see in any sport routine....having said that; the difference in police work on the street is the goal is to apprehend or subdue the suspect until help arrives. No correct decoy presentation, no correct full grips, but the dog must be prepared for the perp to do anything, and as such must use necessary force to either control or subdue. You see I don't know if the intent of this session is to just work on fighting the perp in a sustained confrontation. When dealing with inner city suspects high on crack or pcp the work by the dog often isn't a pretty picture by the book. Not condoning brutality or abuse by the dog whatsoever, but the best training is the training that closely resembles what will take place on the street. In that regard, I want a dog with that type of intensity, albeit also with controls. But let me be honest, many dogs that get really caught up in the heat of battle are NOT going to out like they do in sport or even in training. The real thing is something different altogether....especially in cities and urban areas where life and limb can be on the line everyday for K9 dog as opposed to some more rural areas where the dog might be threatened twice a year.
 

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One other thing, the dog that certifies or graduates the academy doesn't remain the same dog once it leaves training and is involved in many confrontations. Just like the scout dogs that left Ft Benning changed once they went into combat zones. Anxiety levels are higher, stakes are higher, handler less reliant on control and more reliant on no chances taken. Now the type dogs on the street changes from geography to geography .....I agree with the baseline needs of control and obedience for police service dogs....trust me.....but I have seen many many dogs worked just like that dog today here in the northeast. Mistakes can be fatal, officers err on the side of the dog winning either fair or not fair. This has led to problems with suits and depts losing funding in times past...but society today is really getting fed up with some things and just like when a person has committed a high profile violent crime they are often not arrested by the "book", the same thing happens in real life on streets with dogs far more often than what is reported or what we want to believe.jmo
 

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I don't know any department urban or rural , white picket or armpit location , where annual re-certifications are not mandatory . They test the proficiency and the control .
No call offs , no re-certification, no outs , no re-certification. Go back to school. Fail too often and you strike out.
Rural dog use is not easy -- not when you find a nest of "bikers" or some grow-op .
 

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Discussion Starter #18
i viewed a YT of some US working police dog competition in the desert, i assume cos it was a competition/media event with free public access that the better dogs and handlers were attending.

the one constant in the whole comp of many dogs and handlers is that every single dog in the comp had to be manual lifted off the decoy with that gag reflex manouver??




I don't know any department urban or rural , white picket or armpit location , where annual re-certifications are not mandatory . They test the proficiency and the control .
No call offs , no re-certification, no outs , no re-certification. Go back to school. Fail too often and you strike out.
Rural dog use is not easy -- not when you find a nest of "bikers" or some grow-op .
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
here is a grandson, the old dog is a proven producer of hardness and aggression thru his females and males, most are anonymous street dogs. it's good that lovers of the breed see some of the unsung heroes occasionally as opposed to the over-hyped laboratory experiements that get way too much attention and credit for a job never done - if i take a stroll thru the valley of death i won't be fearing no evil with a norse/lex son at the end of the leash.

nothing flashy here and this is just natura/undeveloped aggression, you think you are going to get it over this dog with some training under his belt.

 

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many dogs and handlers is that every single dog in the comp had to be manual lifted off the decoy with that gag reflex manouver??[/QUOTE


This is all I have seen as well. Honestly I don't care. I'd rather the dog get hung off then the dog out and the bad guy start running again and the dog have to re-bite causing more injury and the city/county sued for excessive force. Lets be honest, that's what would happen too.


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