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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
:frown2:

I thought I did enough homework. Thought I found a GSD that was coming from a reputable breeder. Now, i'm not so sure. The more i read, the more flags fly up. Now i'm worried I'll get a timid dog that tucks tail and runs away at the time I need it to be confident and strong....like a video i saw on here of showlines basically cowering to the helper when at a show.

I didn't want a very high, police dog type drive, so i went with a showline GSD. I wanted a dog that would be a protector, good with my kids, but also one that i could participate in IPO if i chose. But the more i read this site, and others, the more it seems like that wasn't the correct choice. That i should've went with a med. drive working line instead. Then, with the breeder, i searched high and low on the breeder to see if i could find any bad reviews, or anything negative. Found nothing but high praise. But then after more review, i find out the sire is on his 3rd breeding and just turned 2 years old. Isn't that a no-no? The dogs aren't shown b/c the breeder "doesn't have time". Both dam and sire come from a long line of titled generations, but neither dam or sire are titled....not horrible, but i'm depending on the pup to hopefully get nerve/confidence from his heritage rather than his mother/father. And doesn't have no titled parents make it harder to breed mine down the road? That was always an option i wanted to have if able to find the right dam.

And i say i think i made a mistake b/c i put my deposit down before finding all this. I know, rookie move. I guess i just cross my fingers and hope for the best. Just looking for some positive vibes if anyone has any


ETA: I don't know.....maybe it's just nerves.
 

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:frown2:

I thought I did enough homework. Thought I found a GSD that was coming from a reputable breeder. Now, i'm not so sure. The more i read, the more flags fly up. Now i'm worried I'll get a timid dog that tucks tail and runs away at the time I need it to be confident and strong....like a video i saw on here of showlines basically cowering to the helper when at a show.

I didn't want a very high, police dog type drive, so i went with a showline GSD. I wanted a dog that would be a protector, good with my kids, but also one that i could participate in IPO if i chose. But the more i read this site, and others, the more it seems like that wasn't the correct choice. That i should've went with a med. drive working line instead. Then, with the breeder, i searched high and low on the breeder to see if i could find any bad reviews, or anything negative. Found nothing but high praise. But then after more review, i find out the sire is on his 3rd breeding and just turned 2 years old. Isn't that a no-no? The dogs aren't shown b/c the breeder "doesn't have time". Both dam and sire come from a long line of titled generations, but neither dam or sire are titled....not horrible, but i'm depending on the pup to hopefully get nerve/confidence from his heritage rather than his mother/father. And doesn't have no titled parents make it harder to breed mine down the road? That was always an option i wanted to have if able to find the right dam.

And i say i think i made a mistake b/c i put my deposit down before finding all this. I know, rookie move. I guess i just cross my fingers and hope for the best. Just looking for some positive vibes if anyone has any


ETA: I don't know.....maybe it's just nerves.
If you share the puppy's pedigree people here could perhaps give some better feedback. Titles aren't everything. But some folks here might know and be able to give you some insight on the ancestry...
 

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Usually...not always...but USUALLY, breeders who breed untitled parents are just doing it to pump out the puppies and make money.

Are the parents health tested?

I bought a puppy from an untitled mother. The breeder was reputable, though, and had tried to title her, but just didn't have the time to do it himself, and the pro handler let him down.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Usually...not always...but USUALLY, breeders who breed untitled parents are just doing it to pump out the puppies and make money.

Are the parents health tested?

I bought a puppy from an untitled mother. The breeder was reputable, though, and had tried to title her, but just didn't have the time to do it himself, and the pro handler let him down.
Parents are health tested. Sire has "a" hips, mother has FCI 0/0


Litter from Joker von Hirschberg and Kimba Starodjurdjevacka

This link is both. Both have been updated since. I have the hip certs and pedigrees from the breeder
Both DM clear
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Usually...not always...but USUALLY, breeders who breed untitled parents are just doing it to pump out the puppies and make money.
And this is what i'm beating myself up about. I wanted to avoid this by all means. Got caught up in the jargon on the website :headbang:
 

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Well, the fact the parents have had hips and elbows tested is good. Means the breeders weren't so focused on money that they decided to skip that step.

BUT titles in showline dogs do NOT necessarily mean good nerves and confidence. Which is one of the reasons I now have a working line dog with a really wonderful 'off' switch.
 

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I'll tell you from personal experience, if you don't know the parent's nerves you have no way of knowing the pups nerves.

That means either they need titles, or you need to know their bloodlines and meet the dogs in person.

My GSD's sire is a great dog from really good lines, he would have really been something if the breeder had put in the work IPO3 easy. Her dam is a sweet ASL with good structure and clear tests, with some good hunt drive in there but that's it. What I got is a pretty high drive dog, she's actually more annoying and pushy than my Malinois if that tells you anything, that's kind of a baby. Not scared of her shadow or anything mind you, but that protective drive just isn't there.

In retrospect, even at the time I knew better but she's so *close* to what I wanted I ignored my misgivings.

My Mal's sire isn't titled but from very intense lines, he's been trained in protection work by the breeder who works for the Sheriff's office & I've seen him work. His dam is a balanced bitch with good peripheral drives (hunt, ball, food, prey, never saw her work but she was in my face with the his sire when we decided to turn around and put down a deposit, didn't bother my wife but I was standing very still and not looking either of them in the eye LOL).

That's when I knew I made the right call turning around, his off-switch and on-switch are extreme opposites. Not always easy to live with, I'm still pulling the matador routine when I get home to avoid the jumping/biting, but my goodness is he easy to train. Very balanced dog though, sounds like about what you're looking for.

Point of telling you all this, if you're looking for a good family dog that will actually protect. It's been my personal experience that it's easier to find a more intense dog you can train / work into being satisfied physically to be a good family dog. While conversely you'll need alot of luck finding a family dog that actually has all the necessary traits to work/protect. Even getting close you can still end up with the same level of physical needs and pushy behavior without all the traits you're looking for.

Put another way, both of my dogs require roughly equal levels of exercise. Both love the neighborhood kids and play gently with them and I'd trust them around a toddler with supervision. 1 at nearly 2 years old will run away if I came towards her quickly out of the dark. The other bit me hard enough to leave a bruise when I did the same to him at 2 months old and I don't bruise easily.

If you're looking at untitled show lines, well......

Don't take the above as a blanket recommendation to go out and get an insane pup from a IPO3 dog & bitch either. Just agreeing with you that what you've surmised from the board is correct. Here among a couple other places, along with discussions with my IPO trainer is how I figured out exactly what I wanted and the verbiage to communicate it to breeders. I knew better in 1 case and got exactly what I wanted in the second.

Trust the board, it won't steer you wrong.
 

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Probably not what you wanted to hear, but better to eat a couple hundred now if you can't get a refund. Than 12 years of a dog that isn't what you're looking for, I love my GSD don't get me wrong but it's a major headache to deal with both of them. Especially knowing the effort I put into 1 is mostly wasted, but she'd be intolerable to live with if I don't.
 
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IMO the anxiety you're experiencing is the reason why there's no substitute for actually meeting a pups parents for insight as to what a pups overall temperament may be as an adult....in some cases I've meant grand parents also....breeders who don't health check is a huge red flag also...your breeder has that covered...in the end you should have a mental image of what you expect from a adult GSD in day to day life...if you spend time with a pups parents you'll have a better idea of what you're getting.


In your shoes If I couldn't meet the parents OR didn't trust the breeder 100%....I'd cut my losses....loose the deposit and move on....it's not worth the risk of living with a possible mistake for 10-12 years of regret.
 

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Who is the breeder maybe there is someone who is familiar with them. How long have they been breeding and have you met there dogs.

You really need to know what need in the dog. There is no doubt you can not a get stable showline that would be capable taking you on a journey of your choosing from a reputable honest breeder. There are stable dogs that are still not the right matches. What do you need. Some people can not handle what they want. I had a police trained working line dog that was capable of doing serious damage to an intruder - a great dog but a big responsibility just in knowing the kind of damage that can occur. Great dog and he fit right in at the time. There are working lines that would be a great fit for you also. I think I’m the only one in here that likes all the lines. You have to meet the dogs. A reputable breeder of any breed that is honest will match you to what you want.

I have done some scent work with my dogs. I do obedience for fun and practice in all different places for fun. My American showline even though on a different level of damage -is protective. Even if I stumble or have a coughing fit he rushes to my side and I feel very safe with him by my side at night. I never had a dog so intune with me. A nose like the devil and he loves to hunt. The only thing I have seen him back away from is smoke. Last night I blew a candle out and he lifted his head up to look at me - I just said it was okay and he went back to sleep. He has a very sensitive nose and He is a very forward pushy at times hard headed or high spirited dog. Max has a high prey drive but a very high pack-family/playful drive and happily lives with a chihuahua and other small pets. My west german showline is protective of her property and home and she does have some protective instincts. She also a gifted nose and is sweet and patient but has a bit of demon inside her- that side max sees from time to time lol! Luna is incredibly biddeable. Both easily can learn new things and are incredibly active when out and super quiet in the house. Both great at going to different places out even though max does not like other dogs he is a dog I can still do thing with. Incredible with my kids and kids that come over. My mom tripped over max and fell the other day he just got up and moved. Both very patient and forgiving dogs. The biggest priority i asked from a breeder that is everyone meshes In the home people pets and I wanted to do scent work and tracking and I have no complaints.luna and max .
 

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I'll toss in the other side of the coin. We told our breeder that we wanted a great companion dog that we could do IPO with but we weren't interested in going for high titles. We just wanted to get out and do things with our dog and hang out with dog people. We met the parents of two litters and ended up with just the pup we wanted! Confident as can be! Not too pushy. Curious about people but not overly social like a "pointy nosed lab". No human challenges him so just his being around is protective. We put a BH on him and could have gone higher on the club level but he is a long haired dog. Both he and my hubby melt in the heat. He isn't flashy in his obedience but he hit the bite-work decoy like a tank! And smart as could be. WGSL with titled lineage that goes way back. His sire only had a BH because he was over sized. I figure that is why such a great dog was sold to an american breeder. You know how we are about big dogs ;). But his sire's temperament was wonderful which is why my breeder brought him home.
 

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:frown2:

I thought I did enough homework. Thought I found a GSD that was coming from a reputable breeder. Now, i'm not so sure. The more i read, the more flags fly up. Now i'm worried I'll get a timid dog that tucks tail and runs away at the time I need it to be confident and strong....like a video i saw on here of showlines basically cowering to the helper when at a show.

I didn't want a very high, police dog type drive, so i went with a showline GSD. I wanted a dog that would be a protector, good with my kids, but also one that i could participate in IPO if i chose. But the more i read this site, and others, the more it seems like that wasn't the correct choice. That i should've went with a med. drive working line instead. Then, with the breeder, i searched high and low on the breeder to see if i could find any bad reviews, or anything negative. Found nothing but high praise. But then after more review, i find out the sire is on his 3rd breeding and just turned 2 years old. Isn't that a no-no? The dogs aren't shown b/c the breeder "doesn't have time". Both dam and sire come from a long line of titled generations, but neither dam or sire are titled....not horrible, but i'm depending on the pup to hopefully get nerve/confidence from his heritage rather than his mother/father. And doesn't have no titled parents make it harder to breed mine down the road? That was always an option i wanted to have if able to find the right dam.

And i say i think i made a mistake b/c i put my deposit down before finding all this. I know, rookie move. I guess i just cross my fingers and hope for the best. Just looking for some positive vibes if anyone has any


ETA: I don't know.....maybe it's just nerves.
Not to offend or bash all show line gsd's, I agree with the above idea about finding a W/L pup that isn't too driven.
 

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IMO the anxiety you're experiencing is the reason why there's no substitute for actually meeting a pups parents for insight as to what a pups overall temperament may be as an adult....in some cases I've meant grand parents also....breeders who don't health check is a huge red flag also...your breeder has that covered...in the end you should have a mental image of what you expect from a adult GSD in day to day life...if you spend time with a pups parents you'll have a better idea of what you're getting.


In your shoes If I couldn't meet the parents OR didn't trust the breeder 100%....I'd cut my losses....loose the deposit and move on....it's not worth the risk of living with a possible mistake for 10-12 years of regret.
I love the comment about the grandparents as I am a firm believer that puppies can follow as much in line with their grandparents maybe even more but thats just me.

You may just be questioning your decision. You have to SOCIALIZE your puppy and help him to become confident. IMO If everyone is giving rave reviews then I would be talking to other owners especially ones that were bred by your pups parents.
 

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Probably not what you wanted to hear, but better to eat a couple hundred now if you can't get a refund. Than 12 years of a dog that isn't what you're looking for, I love my GSD don't get me wrong but it's a major headache to deal with both of them. Especially knowing the effort I put into 1 is mostly wasted, but she'd be intolerable to live with if I don't.
Yes, agreed. Have you met both parent dogs? The pedigrees can give you some idea about what to expect but the mother dog has a great influence on her pups. The pups will learn from her behavior as well. Trust your gut feeling. Maybe consider the deposit being the price for this lesson?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Have you raised a dog with your kids?
I haven't raised one around my kids, but my kids have been around dogs for most of their lives. I wanted to wait to get one until my kids were older.


Yes, agreed. Have you met both parent dogs? The pedigrees can give you some idea about what to expect but the mother dog has a great influence on her pups. The pups will learn from her behavior as well. Trust your gut feeling. Maybe consider the deposit being the price for this lesson?
I haven't met the parents. They are in another state. One of the flags was that the mother is an import.....how much does the breeder really know the mother. And being the puppy is most influenced by the mother (as i've read on here, which lead me to the uneasy feeling), if the breeder doesn't really know the mother, how can the breeder assure me what the puppy will be like. I based it off the conversation i had with her....and don't get me wrong, this wasn't a first phone call deposit. This was after many phone calls, many assurances, etc. It wasn't until i started reading more into the different lines and people experiences on this message board that i started to feel that all is not what i thought it was
 

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Just by being from Germany because it is the country of origin, doesn't guarantee a good dog.
If that's what you think i implied, i didn't mean to. The point of my response was that i thought the male was imported and the female was the breeders. As she would've known how the female acts and her traits.
 

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My thoughts for what they are worth. It is not uncommon to import breeding stock. But it is uncommon to import untitled and untested stock. And I found the breeders site. I would eat the deposit and walk.
On the other hand you said you liked what you initially heard so don't get all wild haired about things said on public forums. Keep in mind that this forum is heavily biased toward working lines and the owners on here first are not your average owners and second tend to post when they are having crappy days.
 
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