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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
A thread which will live in infamy! If the mods don't delete it. And if they don't censor me. Because if we can't really talk here, I mean really talk, I ain't got time. That said, before I say another word I'll issue 2 apologies to EVERYONE who reads right up front: firstly no offense meant, secondly in my opinion. I'm not here to teach. I'm hoping to lean something new. And away we go!
558363

Many may assume that dog is protecting the handler. I assert the handler is ultimately protecting the dog. In other words, any bad guy who resists that dog won't live long enough to testify about it in a court of law. When push comes to shove, a dog only buys you 30 to 120 seconds time. And that, in a nutshell, is the whole of my protection theory:)

To those who disagree, fair warning. 99% of criminals will pass just about any dog by in search of easier prey. The one out of 100, truly violent criminals who engage a lunging snapping dog are in most cases at least "temporarily insane." In other words, "psycho."

And much as I hate to say it, a psycho with a boxcutter may take a dog out mighty quick.

558364

This dog, that dog, my dog, your dog, probably ANY dog.

Is everybody with me so far? do they teach that in protection sports?
 

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I can feel them watching...LOL!

But my question is, can we still talk about pedigrees here? It easily ties in to Personal Protection, so it IS related!

Anyway you asked before, is the dog acting in prey or...

The be exact:

My question to the forum:
what drive do you see expressed here, prey or civil? why?
Is that question no longer a concern?

Looks like prey to me. And I base that entirely on the dog's posture. Tail's up, ears forward, he's having fun!

What do you say is the drive the dog is utilizing in that photo, and why?

Inquiring minds want to know LOL!
 

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IMO protection sports are just that, sports. The original breed test that was designed to test a dogs trainability, willingness and courage is not what happens at a trial. Yes it does speak to some aspects but courage? No, The dogs are aware it's a game. It does not speak to discernment, again it's a game. My mess that I have currently will willingly engage and bite a yelling, threatening human. And she is afraid of plastic bags. She KNOWS it's a game!
A protection dog is different.
They need to be willing to fight a real threat, they need to discern a real threat. The photo shows a dog going after a person running away/past. That has NOTHING to do with protection. That is a dog chasing prey. My protection dog was never more then 6 feet from me and could not be enticed or coerced to move further. IF she bit you and you moved back she let go, because she cannot protect if she is hallway down a field.

Way back when I got handed my first partner I was told that the dogs PRIMARY purpose was my safety. The dog was a tool to buy me time, and you're right it isn't even a ton of time. Because someone who will take on a snarling dog isn't going to blink at an unarmed woman. However! My primary goal was to get us BOTH out of there, because note I said partner.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Learn how to post COULD YA?
Sorry, TS Adams. I'm still trying to get the hang of this social media thing.


I'm not a big art guy. I don't diminish art. I don't dismiss art. It just doesn't move me. I don't get it? But when I see a well honed ipo team, handler and dog working together in tandem, maybe I do? That looks like a Fine Art to me. So I certainly don't mean to diminish or dismiss any team working protection sport venues.

558397

Apparently we all agree this dog is playing a game? I think discernment may be illustrated here also, at least as far as the handlers commands. It looks to me like several objectives are well within reach, yet the dog is not engaging.

Earlier I made the mistake of assuming this dog was wgwl, and someone pointed out it may just as easily be wgsl. I don't disagree. In fact I'll see your wgsl and raise you an akcsl, because why not? I see no reason why it couldn't be?

Dog gone it all, I used to have a link to lackland's statement of work pdf, but for the life of me I can't find it now. I'll have to look around... unless somebody here has it handy?
 

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Sorry, TS Adams. I'm still trying to get the hang of this social media thing.


I'm not a big art guy. I don't diminish art. I don't dismiss art. It just doesn't move me. I don't get it? But when I see a well honed ipo team, handler and dog working together in tandem, maybe I do? That looks like a Fine Art to me. So I certainly don't mean to diminish or dismiss any team working protection sport venues.

View attachment 558397
Apparently we all agree this dog is playing a game? I think discernment may be illustrated here also, at least as far as the handlers commands. It looks to me like several objectives are well within reach, yet the dog is not engaging.

Earlier I made the mistake of assuming this dog was wgwl, and someone pointed out it may just as easily be wgsl. I don't disagree. In fact I'll see your wgsl and raise you an akcsl, because why not? I see no reason why it couldn't be?

Dog gone it all, I used to have a link to lackland's statement of work pdf, but for the life of me I can't find it now. I'll have to look around... unless somebody here has it handy?
Starry Night is not my favorite, although I do have it on a coffee cup. I prefer Irises in the Garden, or Mulberry Tree.
I am not as picky as you. I enjoy watching any good dog doing the job it was bred to do. And there is nothing prettier then a well trained horse working as one with its rider.
As far as the dog in question, I have no care for it's breeding but will give it points for enthusiasm and doing what it's been taught to do.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)


maybe ot, maybe not? certainly not ot to me. I haven't trained a gsd in over 20 yrs and my new pup is near 3 months old. He certainly has the ped of a big bad ddr dog so I hope to "raise the training bar" here for his sake. My intention w/ this post is to compile a list of resources. I'll come back and edit/add as I find. If anybody has any to share, it'll be most appreciated.
2005: https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-19-17.pdf
1997: https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a332189.pdf
 

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Discussion Starter #12

I been away for a long time. Never even seen this thing before. What the heck is with that muzzle/stop/forehead? That don't wrap around a bitearm right at all... not even a puppy sleeve...
that head belongs on an akita...


This is what you want on a bite arm. Long muzzle, short stop, flat head.


Like this.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
558431

I'm not just blowin' smoke here, folks. A real breeder weans early and begins building prey, technique, physique, etc. What are we looking at here? 35? 40 days old? At this age you have to be sensitive. It's all about gentle challenges.

558432

Take them up as high as you can, and gently talk them back down to earth. It's all about building confidence. Rock solid dogs are not born, they are built. The earlier, the better. If you're serious about work, find a litter whose breeder is actively conditioning for work. At 6 months old, that dog would have dived headlong into a volcano at my behest without any hesitation whatsoever. Absolutely fearless. Bulletproof. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #18

Prey is inherent, to some degree, in all canidae, but speaking of selective breeding, I am still amazed at the lack of prey exhibited by my bad little ddr. Not sure but it seems as if I've only managed to tap into his prey via his own competitiveness vs my 49 week old female "perimeter dog." Were it just he and I alone here, I fear I'd still be fetching my own balls :D:LOL::ROFLMAO:

Now lemme demonstrate to everyone here just how much I don't know, in hope somebody will illuminate me


Could this be behavior be prey driven? I mean they are chasing and mouthing. My best guess: maybe? They sure look good together to me. So much so in fact that it tempts me to do a little doodling here... someday...

Karma is a nice name.
Thanks. What do you think about "el karma?"
 

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Discussion Starter #20
nah, 3 syllables "L-car-ma." Quick whisper. Rolls right off the tongue en ingles. He'd pick it right up, no problem. "Cease and desist immediately, or I shall have no choice but to summon el karma..."
 
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