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This came up in a different thread. There were only 10 UDX titles handed out in 2010 to GSDs. I looked more into it and only 252 CDs were given to GSDs! I mean come on! Its a CD...

I think there were something like 216 champions that year and yet so few obedience titles. What do you guys think of these numbers? And why do you think they're so low?

I've heard things about UDX (I'm hoping to get there one day) and I've seen how difficult even CDX can be to get. Some say the biggest difference between AKC titles and Schutzhund is that in Schutzhund the dog doesn't have to be perfect, there are no things that if the dog doesn't do it on the first attempt it fails, is that true? Where as in the AKC ring, if the dog misses a jump it can be an automatic IQ.
 

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DQ or NQ, yeah well perfect is pushing it. I have been to a lot of shows, and I don't know that I have ever seen perfect. But yes, you can not qualify for a number of things.

I think its the UDX that I would not care about. There is novice, that is your CD. Then Open, that is your CDX, and it is similar to a CD, but the on-leash portion is dropped, stays are longer and I think out of sight, there is a jump, etc. The UD has sent articles and retrieve over the jump, hand signals, and maybe a few other things like the stand for exam is more than just a touch, touch, touch.

But the UDX I think is just qualifying in Open and in Utility at the same show x 10. That is a whole lot of entrance fees without really anything more. Kind of like the RAE, Go for the RA, go for the RE, but spend a ton of money to get an RAE? And the some of those people are working on the second or third RAE, this is leg 7 of RAE3, well La dee dah to you too.

No, if you are having a good time, go for it. But to me it really doesn't tell me anything about the dog.

But people are broke right now. I think I got Babs' CD in 2011, and Heidi's RA, but those were the last shows I went to, about a year ago.
 

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What do I think? I think that the higher level obedience titles require more work than most people want to put into a dog. It's not really because of the dogs, it's not American lines versus German lines. We live in an era of instant (or near-instant) gratification, where people lose interest if something is difficult or takes too long. on top of that, many people just aren't jazzed by this type of competition. I still love it, even after all these years.

There are huge differences between going for AKC titles and going for Schutzhund titles.....not saying one is better or more difficult than the other, they are both very different. Schutzhund has considerably more difficult physical requirements...but working a dog in a nice open field, often the same field where the dog has been trained, is a very different story versus showing a dog in a small ring at a crowded indoor show where they've never trained before, with a judge following close.

that's just a couple of random thoughts....gotta run, have to go teach a couple of obedience classes!
 

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There is novice, that is your CD. Then Open, that is your CDX, and it is similar to a CD, but the on-leash portion is dropped, stays are longer and I think out of sight, there is a jump, etc. The UD has sent articles and retrieve over the jump, hand signals, and maybe a few other things like the stand for exam is more than just a touch, touch, touch.
Not quite. Open has offlead heelwork, retrieves (flat and over the jump), a drop on recall, broad jump, sit and down stays with handler out of sight. The retrieve exercises work a bit with the dog's prey drive, the dumbells are thrown. Utility is signal exercise (a killer for many dogs), scent discrimination, directed retrieve, moving stand, directed jumping. No dumbbells or gloves are thrown, nothing is moving to excite the dog's prey drive. Everything except the moving stand has a multiple choice component to it. Utility is a mental game that requires a lot of focus and decision making on the part of the dog.

28 GSDs earned a UD in 2010. That's not very many.
 

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Well, you could not care about the advanced titles, but this forum makes such a big deal out of Schutzhund titles and not breeding without them that its interesting that no one mentions the AKC titles which are much more available than any Schutzhund title (just by number of trials and proximity). Most places train following the AKC titles, and yet no one trials. It's much easier to train for an AKC title than a Schutzhund title which requires all the specialized equipment and the helper. It just doesn't really make sense why looking for a breeding with a UDX isn't pushed as much as looking for a breeding with a Schutzhund III.

Selzer, what does tell you something about the dog? What do you want to see in a potential breeding pair? If I'm looking for a breeder I want to see some titling...and you get out of the dog what you put in it. In my mind a UDX stud or bitch should command more money than one with a UD or CDX.
 

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AKC has been lowering the barriers to entry with dog competitions for years. When I got Rocky, there was no Rally and no Beginner novice. The "lowest" thing you could get was a CD. Nowadays you can get into fun, easier things like RN and BN . Heck, you can get all the way to RAE without ever having to attempt a "formal" obedience title.

After trying agility and trying rally, I have no desire to try for a CD. It just doesn't look like fun to me. AKC is kind of hanging obedience out to dry with things like Rally-o and agility, which are generally more enjoyable for the casual and first-time competitor.
 

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Getting a IPOIII involves succeeding in three different phases, not just obedience... if we are going to discuss breeding-worthiness and testing for that we should think of all three phases and what they entail, what each exercise of each phase tells about the dog (some would say nothing now, but that's a totally different discussion) and the amount of training it takes to succeed.

Emoore, I agree with your opinion on the AKC lowering barriers to entry. I also think a lot of schutzhund people view it as a lifestyle. it's so addicting and takes so long just to get a BH that you want to see your journey through. I can't tell if AKC obedience is the same, because I've never done it. I can tell you people who get UDX, UD etc on their dogs probably go into it with the same mindset that most schutzhund go into training their dogs.

It takes a lot from the handler to get AKC obedience titles. It takes a lot from the handler and the dog to get IPO titles (normally)
 

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I raised my puppy (Jag) with the knowledge that I wanted to do Utility work with him. People who are serious about Obedience raise their puppies differently from those competing in conformation or as pets. We teach them early how to learn, so that the training tends to go easier later.

entries are down thru out AKC. They have added addtional classes in obedience and conformation in order to keep the revenue up.

People seem to have less time for their dogs.
 

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I think there are alot of factors that come into play why so few UD titles.

1. what daphne said, people have less time for their dogs.
2. EXPENSE! Do you know what the entries are for AKC obed? if you've got 1 dog, maybe not so bad, but alot of people have multiple dog households, so alot of expense come into that, along with Training classes another expense.
3. the economy sucks
4. there are soooo many other venues like agility, rally, herding, tracking that are much more "fun" than obedience for alot of dogs &handlers.

I think the biggest reason is money, it ain't cheap anymore to do ANYTHING.

I'm sure there are other reasons but those just popped out of my head.

As for "only" 252 CD's,,well does YOUR dog have a CD? and why not? You could be #253:)
 

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Several years ago I trained my Dobe for a CD, but I never trialed her. She absolutely hated it. Dobes are difficult to train when a trainer insists on a lot of repetition, and that is what was available at the time. :(

Fast forward to now. I have this lovely ASL, that has a stable temperament, a couple of points in the show ring, and her herding instinct certificate. She NEEDS something to do.

I start classes with her tomorrow. I'm excited about her learning. Carly is such a busy bee, that I am sure she is going to love it. I'm pretty sure that her biggest handicap is me, LOL. I'm going to try to not get in her way!

Speaking of titles, we have a member of our local GSD club that has 5 AKC conformation points on her boy, a RN (at least - she may have gotten an RA by now), and a CDX. She is currently training him for Utility and is very excited about it. I'm not sure if she has done any herding with him, but knowing her, she probably has. ;)
 

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I start classes with her tomorrow. I'm excited about her learning. Carly is such a busy bee, that I am sure she is going to love it. I'm pretty sure that her biggest handicap is me, LOL. I'm going to try to not get in her way!
Huh, good luck with that. Agility makes me feel like such a nimrod. I am, without a doubt, the limiting factor in this team.
 

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I'll echo what Daphne said about how costly it is to show your dog in an AKC event.

I took 2 dogs, for 2 days of showing this past weekend to Wichita KS. It was about $120 in entry fees alone, then there is the cost of gas, and a hotel room, and reserve grooming, and food. I came home with 4 ribbons, and a tote bag for 1st place in Bred By Exhibitor. No points. :(

Last weekend, we did the same thing in Claremore OK. Only this time, I spent $50 a dog for each herding instinct test. Two tests for each dog = $200. Ouch. That was on top of about $120 in conformation entry fees, etc etc etc. I came home with 4 conformation ribbons, 3 herding instinct test qualifying ribbons, and no conformation points. But watching the girls in the ring with a few sheep was priceless!!

Now, add the cost of obedience training classes that are starting tomorrow.

Dogs are expensive.
 

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Huh, good luck with that. Agility makes me feel like such a nimrod. I am, without a doubt, the limiting factor in this team.
I feel your pain. I'm about the most ungraceful person on the planet. I'm pretty sure at some point I'll be face down in the ring, with Carly standing over me, laughing.
 

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What do I think? I think that the higher level obedience titles require more work than most people want to put into a dog. It's not really because of the dogs, it's not American lines versus German lines. We live in an era of instant (or near-instant) gratification, where people lose interest if something is difficult or takes too long. on top of that, many people just aren't jazzed by this type of competition. I still love it, even after all these years.

There are huge differences between going for AKC titles and going for Schutzhund titles.....not saying one is better or more difficult than the other, they are both very different. Schutzhund has considerably more difficult physical requirements...but working a dog in a nice open field, often the same field where the dog has been trained, is a very different story versus showing a dog in a small ring at a crowded indoor show where they've never trained before, with a judge following close.

that's just a couple of random thoughts....gotta run, have to go teach a couple of obedience classes!

I have done (and are currently doing) both Sch and AKC - one huge difference is the setting, as someone has said already here.

In AKC OB, usually you are competing in a smaller ring right alongside other rings with active dogs in them. Very different in Sch (at least the few shows that I have been to) where you compete in a large field.

And there is no equivalent in the ScH ring to the "Group" exercises that are in AKC Novice and Open levels where the dogs have to line up 4' from each other in a line and do a 1 minute sit stay and 1 3 minute down stay in Novice and a 3 and 5 minute of the same in Open (with handlers out of sight in Open and across the ring in Novice.

I really think that a number of ScH dogs that I have seen would have a great deal of trouble with these group exercises (OTOH the handlers have not needed to train their dogs for this and haven't done so).

And the scoring in the BH level of ScH (the only one that I have been to) was MUCH Much easier and more casual than the Novice OB. Of course i also think that the scoring in Rally Novice is also much easier and more relaxed than the Novice OB test.

I like both ScH and AKC OB (and of course there is no equiv. of the bite work in the AKC environment).
 

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I started to look into it with Beau but the amount of time is outrageous particulrly when search and rescue training is on the weekends as well. If each trial was a one time thing, but there are so many repetitions you have to do to get a title.........that it seems it would have to be a 'way of life'

So I imagine we will train many of these things for fun but not worry about the titles....and have to be satisfied with annual NAPWDA working certifications, which are pretty robust for cadaver dogs and have a strong obedience element anyway.
 

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Well, you could not care about the advanced titles, but this forum makes such a big deal out of Schutzhund titles and not breeding without them that its interesting that no one mentions the AKC titles which are much more available than any Schutzhund title (just by number of trials and proximity). Most places train following the AKC titles, and yet no one trials. It's much easier to train for an AKC title than a Schutzhund title which requires all the specialized equipment and the helper. It just doesn't really make sense why looking for a breeding with a UDX isn't pushed as much as looking for a breeding with a Schutzhund III.

Selzer, what does tell you something about the dog? What do you want to see in a potential breeding pair? If I'm looking for a breeder I want to see some titling...and you get out of the dog what you put in it. In my mind a UDX stud or bitch should command more money than one with a UD or CDX.
My point is that UDX is not more than UD. Every dog that gets a UD also has gotten a CDX. A UDX is getting a CDX leg and a UD leg at the same show ten separate times. Just like an RAE. That just equals money to the AKC and the various clubs. It really does not tell you anything more about the dog. UD -- yes, that is great. But UDX, so what, you just like going to shows and will bay a slightly reduced double entry form times ten or more if you dog does happen to scrap a section.
 
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