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I think inexperienced owners all have to start with positive only and motivational training, which does not mean inconsistent by the way, and learn to understand and connect with their young dog first with help of their body language, voice, timing, play, observation. How can one properly correct their dog without understanding the impact of the correction on their dog?

It’s absolutely possible to hurt your dogs feelings and erode trust. Why is this surprising? Not all dogs are hard headed, not all are forgiving either.
My first GSD was a mix and as a teenager the only class open to me used a choke chain so I did too. We use what we are taught to use. When I got a purebred and found myself in a treat only class, I didn’t know what I was doing. Eventually the treat only instructor put the dog into a prong collar and it was like night and day. If I had been more experienced with drive, I could have used a regular collar to train her with treats and praise. She had a strong herding drive and wanted to herd anything that moved. I didn’t realize she was herding until long after that class. The instructor didn’t care, she just wanted the disruptions to stop.
 

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The thing with the bonker or anything similar is that is presented by these trainers as a Magical and Instant Solution... but WAIT there's more!!! You can use it for (fill in the blank) and it will instantly stop it! Also don't forget to use it when (dog is doing normal dog stuff that annoys you).

And now you have the dog of your dreams!

I am fine with many forms of (humane) correction - as long as you have taught the dog the meaning of the "no" marker and he knows that this a correction for the behavior you marked.

The only time I do not mark a correction is emergency (dog jumping out of canoe in rapids counts)!
 

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Strange response. What was rude? I see this again and again with before/after videos by online trainers claiming to have the instant magical fix for a dog. Sometimes it's the bonker often its something else. I think this is like a snake oil salesman- selling a cure-all. Dangerous for both the human and the dog.

There are no shortcuts in dog training. It has to be clear, consistent, and individualized to the dog. So these videos irritate me as they mislead your average dog owner into believing in a quick fix like a bonker.
 

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What I find miraculous is that this post has 3,000 views. 😁
 

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"One of the biggest arguments the force free dog training advocates have against the use of any kind of corrective measures or tools in dog training is that, um, they perpetrate the myth that if you correct your dogs or punish your dog or use an e-collar or prong collar or anything like that, that you are somehow going to cause damage to your relationship with the dog ..." - Haz Othman
I will say again, you can do an awful lot to a dog and they will still come back and forgive you and love you (most of them). It doesn’t mean you should or that it’s right.

you absolutely CAN damage a relationship with punishment. I have a friend who has done this. There are certain things I just won’t/don’t say to her. But I have my opinion, I’ve watched her train. I know where her heavy handed ness comes from. The dog competes his heart out for her, but she will never get the speed she wants in certain sports because he is too worried about making a mistake and what the consequences will be. Same in obedience.

he has stress related behaviors that are worse than I think they would be if the whole dynamic was different. That effects their relationship too.






she has gone thru phases where he wouldn’t play with her with a tug toy for months. At the same time he would play with me all day.
 

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I’ll be honest @Jen84, I’m not a fan of the ratio you have for quotes to actual experience in your posts. I know we aren’t supposed to argue but I’m not sure that ratio helps most situations. And you’ve received feedback from members on that feeling.
I lost my internet connection yesterday and I just wanted to add and say thank you for your honesty. Since you brought it up, I just wanted to point out to you and @Bearshandler that I called @dogma13 out on this very subject regarding quotes and citations three months ago. ;)

Here is what I said:

"Are you upset because I cite my sources of information? lol " - jen84

And here is @dogma13 's response:

"@Jen84 you misunderstood my post. I, and I'm sure others are interested in you and your dogs,stories and experiences you've had.Your girl Jen sounds like she was something special. My shepherd that preceeded Samson (Dakota) was white and my constant companion and best friend.
Absolutely nothing wrong with posting quotes and articles.You come up with one for literally every situation, which is great for those who want to learn another aspect about that particular subject. " - @dogma13


 

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I will say again, you can do an awful lot to a dog and they will still come back and forgive you and love you (most of them). It doesn’t mean you should or that it’s right.

you absolutely CAN damage a relationship with punishment. I have a friend who has done this. There are certain things I just won’t/don’t say to her. But I have my opinion, I’ve watched her train. I know where her heavy handed ness comes from. The dog competes his heart out for her, but she will never get the speed she wants in certain sports because he is too worried about making a mistake and what the consequences will be. Same in obedience.

he has stress related behaviors that are worse than I think they would be if the whole dynamic was different. That effects their relationship too.






she has gone thru phases where he wouldn’t play with her with a tug toy for months. At the same time he would play with me all day.
You can also damage your relationship from crating your dog.

If you let your dog run into the highway, you'll damage the relationship permanently.
 

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I lost my internet connection yesterday and I just wanted to add and say thank you for your honesty. Since you brought it up, I just wanted to point out to you and @Bearshandler that I called @dogma13 out on this very subject regarding quotes and citations three months ago. ;)

Here is what I said:

"Are you upset because I cite my sources of information? lol " - jen84

And here is @dogma13 's response:

"@Jen84 you misunderstood my post. I, and I'm sure others are interested in you and your dogs,stories and experiences you've had.Your girl Jen sounds like she was something special. My shepherd that preceeded Samson (Dakota) was white and my constant companion and best friend.
Absolutely nothing wrong with posting quotes and articles.You come up with one for literally every situation, which is great for those who want to learn another aspect about that particular subject. " - @dogma13


I could add qoutes and citations to a lot of things I say. Perfect example, I could name the person who taught me about building ball drive in a dog and some of the methods to use. That doesn’t matter though because I saw for myself the results of said methods. I watched them in action. I used them. The problem a lot of people have is you come off as a YouTube trainer. Everything you know or say seems to come from someone else without the actual experience or practice to back it up. A perfect example is this bonker thing. You steadfast defend the technique and certain trainers who use it because a more respected trainer from YouTube also recommended it. Everyone else here who looks into it or the trainer, or in some cases have used similar training techniques, decries it. Your arguments for it aren’t based on actual use and results that you’ve seen for yourself.
 

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@Jen84 Bearshandler is saying pretty much the same thing as me without the sugar coating. We really would like to hear about you and your dogs.If all we did here was to post videos and quotes back and forth it would be like browsing a news site. People are interested in yours and each others thoughts and experiences.
 

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I could add qoutes and citations to a lot of things I say. Perfect example, I could name the person who taught me about building ball drive in a dog and some of the methods to use. That doesn’t matter though because I saw for myself the results of said methods. I watched them in action. I used them. The problem a lot of people have is you come off as a YouTube trainer. Everything you know or say seems to come from someone else without the actual experience or practice to back it up. A perfect example is this bonker thing. You steadfast defend the technique and certain trainers who use it because a more respected trainer from YouTube also recommended it. Everyone else here who looks into it or the trainer, or in some cases have used similar training techniques, decries it. Your arguments for it aren’t based on actual use and results that you’ve seen for yourself.
Everything you know or say seems to come from someone else without the actual experience or practice to back it up.
How do you know I don't have the experience or practice to back it up?

I actually posted videos of my dog. How many people other than you, that are complaining, have posted video ?

I have a PP dog that I trained myself and I told you that months ago when you were carrying on.

And yes, my dog has bitten people for REAL... none of this blah blah blah... I think my dog will protect me.

If you don't ask questions what can I do. You want me to start bragging about my dog because you won't like that either.

I could paraphrase and make a big write-up and pretend I'm smart too. It's a lot easier to just cut and paste and let people look at the information themselves. You think I have time to spend on a dog forum all day LOL

I don't "steadfast" anything bonker. I said, I have no problem keeping that tool in the box. I don't care much for bonker but it is not much different than kicking or slapping a dog.

If you feel that strongly about bonker than boycott Larry Krohn. I'm a Haz man anyways :)

And believe me, if I was truly honest how you and most come off I would be banned lol.

I'm pretty sure you remember the Nate Harve's quote ;)
 

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@Jen84 Bearshandler is saying pretty much the same thing as me without the sugar coating. We really would like to hear about you and your dogs.If all we did here was to post videos and quotes back and forth it would be like browsing a news site. People are interested in yours and each others thoughts and experiences.
I posted like 6 plus videos of my dog. Who else here that is complaining has posted a video of their dog other than bear and a few others ?

I'm not interested in BS, half the threads here are made by trolls. Anybody can make up any BS and you believe them lol.

Tell me about the Berno thread where I pointed out that he fabricated one of my quotes. It's still there which is good. But I end up being banned lmao.

Are you guys even for real OMG.

:ROFLMAO:
 

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How do you know I don't have the experience or practice to back it up?

I actually posted videos of my dog. How many people other than you, that are complaining, have posted video ?

I have a PP dog that I trained myself and I told you that months ago when you were carrying on.

And yes, my dog has bitten people for REAL... none of this blah blah blah... I think my dog will protect me.

If you don't ask questions what can I do. You want me to start bragging about my dog because you won't like that either.

I could paraphrase and make a big write-up and pretend I'm smart too. It's a lot easier to just cut and paste and let people look at the information themselves. You think I have time to spend on a dog forum all day LOL

I don't "steadfast" anything bonker. I said, I have no problem keeping that tool in the box. I don't care much for bonker but it is not much different than kicking or slapping a dog.

If you feel that strongly about bonker than boycott Larry Krohn. I'm a Haz man anyways :)

And believe me, if I was truly honest how you and most come off I would be banned lol.

I'm pretty sure you remember the Nate Harve's quote ;)
I got your real answer on it, which isn’t so different from mine, but that’s not how it came off throughout the rest of this thread. I can’t answer for anyone else who talks about others dogs or training but puts up nothing of theirs. It’s something I’ve talked about here before, though there were very specific people in mind. I don’t care so much to hear brags but facts about how dogs actually are. I think there’s a lack of honest conversations about certain things. As for boycotting and favorite trainers, I don’t pay any of those guys anything nor are they who I learn from. Im fortunate to have a lot of dog people and dog trainers around me. My personal opinion is they are absolutely phenomenal. Some of them have resumes you’d be hard pressed to find anything close to on YouTube. I don’t care to sound smart or anything like that. I simply look to get better and help others do the same. That was the whole purpose of me coming here, to seek out a larger group of people with different experiences than me. I’m just not fond of vicariously fighting through other people’s words or battling opinions of people who are here to expand on their statements.
 

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I'm sorry that happened. I see this forum as a platform for learning, and listening to people who know what they are talking about critique those videos, explaining the dogs' body language, etc., that may help someone grow in their training techniques. I hate seeing a discussion degrade to the point where folks are banned.
 

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I think inexperienced owners all have to start with positive only and motivational training, which does not mean inconsistent by the way, and learn to understand and connect with their young dog first with help of their body language, voice, timing, play, observation. How can one properly correct their dog without understanding the impact of the correction on their dog?

It’s absolutely possible to hurt your dogs feelings and erode trust. Why is this surprising? Not all dogs are hard headed, not all are forgiving either.
I truly wish this was how it normally goes.

At least for me, it started with more aversive training only to find out later that there are 'easier', less conflicting ways to teach something, and I'm newer to the dog training world (6 years?). Sometimes the "quick and easy" option isn't the best option. I had a trainer (who actually gets recommended here a lot) recommend to at least two people I knew at the time to use an e-collar to silence crying in a crate from a puppy. Nevermind puppies cry in crates and it's a natural part of crate training that consistency and positive association fixes. Same trainer had recommended using a slip lead to cut off air supply to a dog when it was leaking (vocal) during secondary OB for IGP. Sure it worked, the dog was less likely to make noise in anticipation of being choked, but the dog started to have issues at home (marking indoors). Person stopped training with this trainer and within a month the issues at home resolved. Maybe unrelated, maybe not.

I'm all for corrections when necessary, but if I can train with rewards or redirect without causing pain, I'd prefer to go that route if possible.
 

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I will say again, you can do an awful lot to a dog and they will still come back and forgive you and love you (most of them). It doesn’t mean you should or that it’s right.

you absolutely CAN damage a relationship with punishment. I have a friend who has done this. There are certain things I just won’t/don’t say to her. But I have my opinion, I’ve watched her train. I know where her heavy handed ness comes from. The dog competes his heart out for her, but she will never get the speed she wants in certain sports because he is too worried about making a mistake and what the consequences will be. Same in obedience.
he has stress related behaviors that are worse than I think they would be if the whole dynamic was different. That effects their relationship too.
Yup, have seen this with someone I used to train with. She had a terrible temper, and was very stressed going into an obedience test. The dog knew it, and didn't want to get anywhere near her. He was lagging about 4 ft. behind her when heeling.

She had the nerve to blame the club's trainers for her flunking the test... :rolleyes: Talk about lack of self-awareness!
 

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You can also damage your relationship from crating your dog.

If you let your dog run into the highway, you'll damage the relationship permanently.
I'm not sure I really understand the point of this especially the highway thing. But I will say that for my personal dog who I compete with, I have chosen not to take advice from certain people who suggested I do things that I felt were unfair or overly heavy handed to him for several reasons. A piece of it would be yes I think it would damage my working relationship with him but that's even kind of a selfish reason to me-- the bigger reason is it just totally isn't fair or right in his case. My dog tries so hard for me, nobody tries harder than him to figure out what I want and do it. What's to correct/punish?

Now as far as running into the highway we don't live near one but I did correct my (same) dog for chasing deer with an E Collar because of how dangerous that is. I do not feel our relationship was damaged at all by this and partly because by the time I did it, I already had a strong foundation with him where he has an understanding that I am fair, and good things produce big rewards. He had a very strong motivational recall that was awesome in every situation except when he had already started a chase which was where it failed and I fixed it with the e collar. He is still the same happy, enthusiastic dog he always was except now I can stop him from chasing game.

My point was never that dogs can and should never be corrected because that isn't my position. I do correct my dogs. I do it within the reference of who they are-- how soft they are and what are their motivations. For instance when my competition dog gets something wrong in the ring it is typically because I've explained it insufficiently or practiced and generalized insufficiently. That's on me, not him.

My lab was slow to down on a rally course in a dirt ring at a fairground where all the signs were flapping in the wind. He was uncomfortable. Correcting him would just make him more uncomfortable. What he needed was encouragement. And he isn't being "bad" or "stubborn".

I think a lot of times people are quick to assign blame to the dog when it isn't on the dog. That same rally trial one of the signs blew away during my run with my GSD and I just blanked out bad! The next sign in our run was gone and I didn't know where to go and what to do and the judge was standing there telling me what the sign said that was no longer there and I just couldn't comprehend for a second... We lost the blue on that one because someone else beat us on time due to my standing there for a minute in the course trying to figure out what was going on. I mean if I can have a little malfunction because of something unexpected so can my dogs. Did I deserve to be punished because I got confused about where the sign went and what I was supposed to do? (I'm not a person who can memorize courses btw) I'm sure dogs blank out like that sometimes too. What I needed was for the judge to repeat what she said and give me a second to understand which she did...and I figured it out and we went on...sometimes our dogs need us to repeat and encourage.

Absolutely sometimes nothing but a correction will work. I can't compete with deer. But I really think people are often way too quick to want to blame and punish a dog for their own failures in foundation, teaching, explaining, encouragement, etc.
 
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