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Wow-that is a great article.

You have to love Cesar as a person-he is magnetic, and he thinks he is doing the right thing. Like maybe those "behaviorists" who believe wrapping kids in blankets and hug therapy-ing them works. They may have great intentions but the method and the reasons are flawed. You get results, but why? Suppression?

For some people that doesn't matter-not because they are bad people and I don't know the reasons it wouldn't matter-and would be interested in knowing why that is. I personally love to sit and dissect behaviors, but that is what I do.

I enjoyed reading about the wolf packs, and the dog packs, and the punishments that they give. I have watched my dogs with puppies many times, and they are never as focused on discipline and control with a puppy as people are. I have learned from watching them that you don't have to be so punitive, so quickly.

I was so glad to read this headline: "POSITIVE DOES NOT MEAN PERMISSIVE"

And this whole paragraph: "This does not mean, however, that the dog is not given boundaries, firm rules or is only responsive when treats are present.

Positive training and behavior modification methods start with setting clear boundaries and controlling the resources in the dog's life, including affection and play, which are not given to the dog for free or on demand. This is done in a way that sets the owner up to succeed, so that they can control their attention, but still enjoy their dog's company and affection."

My pack is not always doing as I wish, when I wish, and sometimes looks like a mob scene. They are like a liquid, expanding to the limits of my container-some days I say our container is going to be smaller, and others we have a very large container...and they are able to adapt. But what the old Kramer taught me is that might doesn't equal right, and you can get greater, truer results working with the dog and its particular needs, than against them.
 

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The article was a good read, but their opinions on the show/the trainer himself are also slightly flawed. Cesar doesn't discredit mental stimulation. He even says in some of his shows, "dogs need something to do" and even goes on to talk about agility, etc. in some episodes..............of dogs that are suitable for agility.

I don't have anything against Cesar Milan, but then again, I don't wear a tin-foil hat and am brain-washed to think that his method of training is the only method of training and should be taken as the prophet's word
 

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From my quick look around that site it is entirely aniti dog whisperer and goes to great length to discredit him and his methods. A big turn off for me.

Even worse, this is a dog training school who appears to be building themselves up by discrediting other methods. Perhaps they should spend more time and energy on building themselves up instead of tearing othes apart. If anyone bashes the competition vs. emphasiing their strengths I walk away from them - fast.
 

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Quote:DNA evidence is conclusive, dogs and wolves are the same species and it would not take that much for dogs to return to a feral/wild state
They don't go back to being wolves though, even over many many generations. They go to being feral dogs, which are quite distinct from wolves both morphologically and behaviorally. I highly recommend the Coppingers' book that they cite to anyone who hasn't read it. Very interesting reading.
 

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Precisely, the OP posted an article by someone wishing to sell their products.

However, I do agree that Cesar does not concentrate enough on mental stimulation. With my guy it is so helpful, whether doing search and rescue, retrieving or whatever. Plus, while doing this stuff the dog is also being trained.
 

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Originally Posted By: Timber1Precisely, the OP posted an article by someone wishing to sell their products.

However, I do agree that Cesar does not concentrate enough on mental stimulation. With my guy it is so helpful, whether doing search and rescue, retrieving or whatever. Plus, while doing this stuff the dog is also being trained.
he did mention that in a few episodes but its a short one hour show and he is addressing one issue at a time
 

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I also don't like that he doesn't stress mental stimulation, but he has to poke and prod and cajole these owners into taking their dogs out on long walks; I doubt the majority of them can handle giving their dogs a lot of mental stimulation!


I like some of Cesar's ways, I dislike much of them. Some of his stuff is great as part of a training program, much of it is not, at least not for me.
 

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Aloha, as newbie, my only real observation is that dogs and I guess GSD's in general need massive attention, stimulation, exercise to thrive. Those people who have a GSD or large dog in an apartment or house and even do a small walk daily and a major walk 2-4 times a week will shortly be in need of a dog behaviorist. I really don't see how they can do it. Even with Rasa who gets short walks 4-5 times a day and several balls thrown and long AM and PM daily outings is on the verge of being bored.
Frank
 

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Quote:Even with Rasa who gets short walks 4-5 times a day and several balls thrown and long AM and PM daily outings is on the verge of being bored.
Where's the MENTAL stimulation!? Just to give you an idea, today we have worked on sending Renji around trees right and left, going between two poles a certain way (weave pole entries), directed jumping from quite a distance, schutzhund-style heeling, sitting and downing during heel while I keep going, (all this WHILE playing fetch), then tonight I'm going to work with him more on "go get your leash" so he can bring me his collar and leash on command and also learning the name of a new toy (his "lizard") and work on more toy discrimination by name. And maybe work on one of Melanie's training challenges. I think things like these are what you're missing, Frank.
 

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Aloha, yes always looking for mental things. Find-it is a great one that she almost breaks her tail with enthusiasm. The throwing of the ball in the am and pm is a match of wills, she teases me with the ball and challenges me for it, and I tease her by pretending to throw. (during the day it is a fetch thing) It develops to a hide and seek where I throw the ball and hide and when she brings the ball back and finds me gone she goes nuts looking for me. etc. But y r rite I need more stuff to occupy her mental challenges during the day
frank
 

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I've read both of Cesar's books but I've never seen the show. I think he has got a lot of great stuff to teach us about having proper relationships with our dogs and giving them what they need. Has anyone ever seen "the pack"? This group of 40 some dogs that he has rehabilitated, some seriously damaged dogs (mostly Rotweiliers, Pit Bulls, and GSD's) and he takes them all out for unleashed jogs in the CA mountains and they all respect him and obey him????? That, to me, is an unimaginable feat. Maybe he isn't 100% on but he is certainly close!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I posted the article to share.

I like a various number of authors, trainers, behaviorists, etc.

I don't agree 100% with every trainer, I choose bits and pieces of each, and use what works with my dogs. Probably the biggest aspect that I like about Cesar is how he remains calm, it is a reminder to me to practice that. I am sure other trainers do this also.

One of the best books I ever read, not from Cesar, was "The other end of the Leash", I have read a number of times, it really has helped me.

I know Cesar uses methods that others have already preached, however he has saved alot of tough breed dogs that would have been put down (like it was mentioned).

I know all my dogs are so different, and different approaches need to be used on all of them.

My biggest curiosity on the article is about the wolves, I would love to know the answers/connection/truths to our dogs
 

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Originally Posted By: Jasper007I posted the article to share.

I like a various number of authors, trainers, behaviorists, etc.

I don't agree 100% with every trainer, I choose bits and pieces of each, and use what works with my dogs. Probably the biggest aspect that I like about Cesar is how he remains calm, it is a reminder to me to practice that. I am sure other trainers do this also.

One of the best books I ever read, not from Cesar, was "The other end of the Leash", I have read a number of times, it really has helped me.

I know Cesar uses methods that others have already preached, however he has saved alot of tough breed dogs that would have been put down (like it was mentioned).

I know all my dogs are so different, and different approaches need to be used on all of them.

My biggest curiosity on the article is about the wolves, I would love to know the answers/connection/truths to our dogs
PBS and NatGeo had specials just on those issues including researching the genome other related studies. in a nutshell the wolves with the least flight response to our presence and hanging around our kills survived thrived, they gave back to the group early warning to predators and competitors as well as detecting prey, in lean times they were used as food as well. The DNA has been traced back to the central Asian wolf and the change from wolf to dog was quite rapid
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Thanks for the info.

I found this interesting from the article (it was from the pic of "Alpha roll or omega roll"? very first pic on article


"Closer observations of wolves over the last 40 years have shown that this infamous behavior is an act of submission, not dominance. A wolf voluntarily rolls on its back in a subordinate display. No contact is made, thus avoiding dangerous physical conflict"

I watch this at work, and once this is acted, it relieves so much tension, no fight.

Curious on everyones take on this...

http://www.mmilani.com/leadership-vs-dominance.html
 

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When we look at the Genus/species specifically (say THAT fast! *L*), wolves are classified as Canis lupus and dogs are classified as Canis familiaris or Canis lupus familiaris.

So the Genus is the same, the species or sub-species is different. They can mate under some circumstances but that does not mean they're the same species (lions and tigers can mate and they are different species).

There are differing theories on the evolution of the dog. Many are now subscribing to the theory that dogs evolved from wolves who were loners and who naturally gravitated to humans in order to live off of their cast-offs (bones, scraps, etc.). These wolves were perhaps genetically predisposed to NOT be pack-oriented already.

Regardless, if anyone has ever been around true wolves, there is a HUGE difference in the behavior. I had the honor (and I say it that way because it was educational, not because I think that wolves should be kept in captivity) to work with a full-blooded wolf. The DIFFERENCES in behavior were readily apparent, and it was also obvious that if I had tried to alpha roll or otherwise physically manipulate this animal I was likely to end up bloody (despite the fact that he had been hand-raised since 11 days old). He was nine months old at the time I first met him.

If people would actually go and read the article posted by the OP (in case you haven't) you'll see that very little is actually about Millan himself - it gives very clear and lucid explanations of why his training methods (and I use that term loosely) are flawed. It's not just a typical Millan-bashing article, it's well-written and logical.

As far as his "pack" goes - when people are truly versed in reading dogs, they can see stress quite readily. I watch him with his pack in the concrete jungle and I see fear submission. I see faces in stress, lips pulled back, eyes tense, heads lowered (not in "calm submission" but in "fear submission"), tails dropped - these are signals of dogs who are fearful and trying to avoid punishment. Anyone with the physical strength to do this could have the same result. Fearful dogs will often choose to approach their "MASTER" in hopes of placating him, and that's what I see when I watch Millan's interactions with his "pack".

My interpretation is based on 20 years of observation and education in the behavior and training of dogs. Unfortunately the general public doesn't have that sort of background and what they see is a bunch of dogs that aren't fighting. And that impresses them because they don't see past that. It's not the fault of the general public - they just don't know the difference. And Millan depends on that ignorance.

It's a difficult situation. Those truly "in the know", so to speak (and I'm talking the behaviorists and others who have studied dog behavior extensively, more in depth than I have even) have put out article after article explaining WHY alpha rolls and choking are not the best ways to train a dog. But when they do this, others are quick to claim "professional jealousy" even though I seriously doubt that's it. There is very real concern amongst the dog-training communities that Millan is encouraging people to do things that can be truly harmful to both the human and the dog - and can easily destroy the trust a dog has in his humans.

I have no professional reason to disagree with Millan. I'm not offering lessons or classes to anyone on this forum or anyone anywhere at this point. I don't agree with his methods because they're dangerous, "old school", misguided and wrong. While he promotes exercise and leadership (what dog behaviorists have been encouraging for decades), he then goes on to choke a dog into submission while smiling from ear to ear.

Oh - on the submissive roll - my 19 month old pup, Tazer, STILL does that submissive roll under Trick. It's not at Trick's initiation, however .. it's Tazer's way of stealing a toy out of Trick's mouth. And then she prances away in glee. But when you watch the entire behavior, Tazer runs to Trick and grabs the edge of the toy - Trick grumbles or bares her teeth, Tazer drops down underneath with her ears back and her tail tucked, rolls halfway onto her side while still holding onto the toy, and Trick lets her have it. And then Tazer leaps up, tail up and ears forward, and takes a victory lap. After that she usually comes back and tries to stuff the toy into Trick's mouth so that they can play the game all over. Trick - who many would probably see as the alpha - puts up with Tazer but she's not disciplining her. Tazer's CHOICE is to roll in a submissive manner, because it gets her what she wants. It appears to be an alpha roll, but is in fact a submissive roll.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
 

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Thanks for posting that article, Jack. There is a lot of interesting explanations and great links. I have bookmarked it as it is too much for me to take in during one read-through. I got quite a few "light bulb" moments after reading what I was able to fit into my limited time. So, thanks again!

I do feel that Cesar Milan does have some inate skill in relating to dogs but sometimes he does not provide a good role model to those without that ability. In fact, in some cases, people without much knowledge who decide to practise some of his methods may incur a great deal of harm for both themselves and their dogs. Some dogs are not not easy for experienced people let alone amateurs.

Interesting also was Melanie's post, as a similar theme was evident in Patricia McConnell's "dog-dog agression" video where one of her subordinant dog's submissive behaviour resulted in the dominant dog relinquishing a bone to the submissive one. Aaah, the pageant of life!
 
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