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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
(Starting a new thread, so as not to take over the other one active now.)

I guess it's common knowledge that the brindle patter in the GSD is "extinct" (taking into account that there are those out there who claim to have one pop up every now and then.)

Reading up on the brindle pattern in the breed, I'm having trouble determining exactly WHY it's extinct. Some people are saying it's not an acceptable pattern in the breed standard and has been bred out, while others are saying it was bred out because it just wasn't popular.

The GSD breed standard (on the AKC's website) makes no mention of the brindle pattern at all.

So, if someone legitimately produces a dog that is verified through DNA to be 100% pure German Shepherd, and it exhibits the brindle pattern... would it be eligible for showing?
 

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Any dog is eligible to show in the AKC ring...white is the only disqualifying fault. Washed out colors are serious faults.

I think what people forget about the AKC ring is that you can put any dog in there...it just depends on what your chances are winning are with that dog. We all kind of know that anything but black and tan is already at a disadvantage in the show ring. I've also been told that black is tougher to win with because its easier to see faults on an all black dog. Sables aren't preferred, but I've seen some patterned sables manage championships in the AKC ring. I think a well proportioned, everything else good dog that might have a brindle pattern would easily be able to be entered in a show and win (all breed more likely).

I'm not sure if a judge, knowing the history of the breed and the probability of a brindle pattern, can ask for a DNA test if the dog is truly registered with the AKC and has a pedigree. Not sure what the process is for "challenging" the pureness of a dog is if the judge does have a question about it. It would really take a huge genetic surprise for two dogs of separate breeds and when the puppies are born the ONLY trait that a pup takes from one breed is the color while the other breed completely dominates the conformation.
 

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having discussed this with my geneticist friend who worked on the genome , no gene disappears - it goes deep into storage . That is why the brindle is so interesting to me , if it emerges does this then mean other attributes are linked. Brindle was a colour pattern in the herding dogs of the northern regions, Holland , and they were or could easily have been included in the practical/functioning true herding dogs of the region which were returned to or incorporated a decade or so before the turn of the century. Just remember that the map of Europe has been re-drawn many times "The Dutch Shepherd was discovered as a naturally occurring shepherd's dog type living in the rural areas of the larger region that today includes The Netherlands"
Naturally occurring --- indigenous , just as the regions of Germany had indigenous types -
The breed standard was established at the same time period as the GSD "When the first breed standard was written in 1898, the coat could be any color."

And this "But in 1914 it was decided to allow only brindle to distinguish the breed from the then similar German Shepherd and Belgian Shepherd.[2] The breeds eventually diverged into the three distinct breeds as known today" Curious that is was in 1914 - I guess an obvious distinction, pulling away from- disassociation - frictions between the blood-related monarchies and tinder box politics were apparent in 1914 .

The dogs even had the same herding style "Originally the main function of the Dutch Shepherd Dog was that of a shepherd’s dog in the countryside. From early times, the Dutch had an arable culture that was maintained by flocks of sheep. The dogs had to keep the flock away from the crops, which they did by patrolling the borders of the road and the fields. They also accompanied the flocks on their way to the common meadows, markets and ports"

Not the herding style of the collies - not the herding that is tested in herding instinct tests which is so far removed from the GSD style.

The brindle does point to the ancestry of the molosser
mastiff type as seen on this graph 13 of the Year's Best Infographics | Wired Design | Wired.com
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
(I'm having a rough day, my brain isn't functioning correctly, so please excuse me if I've missed the answer to these questions already)...
If the brindle pattern, like the sable pattern, is dominate, then why do we not see it in today's GSD?
And what would it take to produce a dog, today, that has the brindle pattern, without adding the influence of a different breed?

I know the sable is dominate, that sable dogs produce sable puppies... but I also know that two sable parents which are the offspring of one sable and one non-sable, can produce a non-sable puppy.
How many generations back, would you have to go to find the brindle gene, and if you have two dogs that are produced from dogs that were produced from dogs that were produced from dogs that carried or displayed the brindle gene, what are the chances it will pop up?

And because it's rare, what are the chances it'll pop up and will be classified as sable? Which brings up another question. When is sable further dissected to be differentiated as brindling? My sable girl has some "stripes" on her lower legs and toes, but nowhere else on her body. (I will try to get pics tonight to show what I mean.)
 

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Even if the brindle gene has been bred out of the breed through selective breeding, that gene will not vanish. A dog, somewhere, may still carry it. It may be a dominant allele, it may be a recessive allele, but it is obvious that it is a rare allele to carry in our modern dogs. Although not lost, I would consider it a "rare" colour allele regardless of gene dominance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I was just using her as an example. She is sable, but because of the pattern on her legs, some say she's got "brindling." What constitutes a true brindle. A dog with that pattern all over? What about a dog with a saddle, but the striping on it's tan portions? (All theoretical of course, as supposedly no brindle GSD is proven to actually exist these days.)
 

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Carmspack - could brindle be a combination of genes, or is it a stand alone gene?
 

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Would that mean that my boy may not end up producing a pup with his same brindle coat? Would breeding with a sable pattern or even a white help our chances for pups to look like our boy?
 

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Any dog is eligible to show in the AKC ring...white is the only disqualifying fault. Washed out colors are serious faults.
But no black nose is also a disqualifying fault, so blues and livers, hanging ears, and any dog attemting to bite a person are also disqualified.
 

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Would that mean that my boy may not end up producing a pup with his same brindle coat? Would breeding with a sable pattern or even a white help our chances for pups to look like our boy?
We'd need to know what's behind your dog's brindle type coat. So what the sire and dam and the grandparents were. That would give a better idea of the types of genes that your dog is carrying.

Please post the pedigree and we can help answer that question for you.
 

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But no black nose is also a disqualifying fault, so blues and livers, hanging ears, and any dog attemting to bite a person are also disqualified.
Actually a blue or a liver with a black nose could still be entered...I know, not likely, but if it happens it happens. An overbite is also a disqualifying fault but I thought we were just talking about coat color so I didn't feel the need to list every single fault a judge could find.
 

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that HCerda is exactly what it means .
Before anything can be said , the genetics have to be known - pedigree to begin with .
The older the line, the more off-track , most likely the less modern show , probably into the older ddr OLDER ddr the better the chances
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Would that mean that my boy may not end up producing a pup with his same brindle coat? Would breeding with a sable pattern or even a white help our chances for pups to look like our boy?
I've been told (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that sable and brindle are similar, with the brindle just being more organinzed patterning, where as the sable is scattered? (information supplied by a bully breeder who specialized in brindles with the occasional sable... but I don't know where his education came from regarding the issue, so it may be way off base.)
 

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Malcolm Willis -- geneticist specializing in GSD would have some comments -- when I have a moment I'll see if I can find some comments .

Collies for example are sable (one of the colours) but it is not the same sable as the GSD.

copied "Brindle -- question for the genetics wizards
by jc.carroll on 12 July 2010 - 13:42
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On the topic of brindle... I'm trying to understand something.

I know that it's on the K locus, however I'm wondering the difference between dominant black which -would- mask the brindle gene. Dominant black is located on the K-locus.
The K-locus has three genes; K=dominant black, k(br)=brindle, and k = non-solid black which allows the A locus to be expressed.

The GSD is one of the few breeds that has recessive black, located on the A-locus. Sable is also located on the A-locus.
The A-locus is as follows: A(y) = sable, a(w) = agouti (which looks like sable), a(s) =saddle pattern, a(t) = tan points, and a = recessive black


The Belgian Terv is supposed to carry both forms of black. I believe labrador retrievers do as well because I used to work with them, and brindle occurs, albeit infrequently, in purebred labradors. Sable and brindle could theoretically co-exist together in genotype, but I don't know what the resulting dog would look like. Recessive black can be expressed only if both parents carry the gene... Dominant black will be expressed if only one or the other parents is black.




So my question is: how can it be proved (or disproved) that certain workinglines could carry dominant black, and therefore express brindle on rare occasion? Can it be proved that dominant black, which is typical for most breeds, with rare exceptions like the GSD, does not exist in GSD bloodlines?
for anyone who has the book - quote "j.c.carroll,
according to Malcolm Willis (1991), the brindle gene is located on the E or Extension Series. It is called e-br. See page 40/41 if you happen to have his book "The Genetic History".
Chris

follow the discussion Brindle -- question for the genetics wizards - Page 1
 

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I find it very difficult to believe that if a gene for a color is still there, that there wouldn't be random brindles like there are blues, livers etc. Just me being skeptical and asking why, as I always do!

Linkage and Segregation Analysis of Black and Brindle Coat Color in Domestic Dogs
Observations for an additional two breeds are particularly demonstrative. Traditionally marked German shepherd dogs are fixed for the yellow (ky) allele of the K locus and the + allele of Mc1r; the difference between black and black-and-tan German shepherd dogs is determined solely by the nonagouti (a) vs. the at allele of Agouti. Thus, the ability of Agouti to prevent production of yellow pigment is epistatic to that of the K locus to allow yellow pigment. (Stated differently, the yellow allele (k−y) of the K locus can give rise only to yellow pigment in the presence of a functional Agouti allele.) Finally, Afghan hounds with a K genotype that would ordinarily yield brindle (kbr/kbr or kbr/ky) may vary at both Agouti (at or ay) and Mc1r (+ or R306ter). In all cases, the interactions between kbr and Agouti or Mc1r alleles can be predicted on the basis of what happens for ky and for KB. In at/at; kbr/kbr; +/+ animals, brindling is restricted to the areas of the coat that would otherwise be tan (“black and brindle”); in e/e animals, brindling is not apparent because Mc1r is epistatic not only to KB but also to kbr.



These relationships, together with specific examples in which we have directly determined the genotypes for Agouti, Mc1r, and K, are summarized in Table 3, and their implications for understanding the underlying biochemical pathways are depicted in Figure 4. There are several key points. First, the relationship between Mc1r and Agouti in dogs is identical to that which occurs in other mammals where Agouti acts to antagonize melanocortin signaling in a manner that is completely dependent on a functional receptor. Second, Mc1r is epistatic to all K locus variation, and the K gene product behaves similarly to Agouti protein in this way; each requires a functional Mc1r to modulate melanocortin signaling. Finally, the epistatic relationship between Agouti and K depends on the alleles being tested: “black alleles” of K are epistatic to “yellow alleles” of Agouti, but “black alleles” of Agouti are epistatic to “yellow alleles” of K. Thus, the relationship between Agouti and K is fundamentally different from the relationship between Mc1r and either Agouti or K.
Brindle in Dogs: New Information about Stripes | Color Genetics

Dog Coat Color Genetics

Dogs run through back yards all the time, producing litters with multiple fathers, as we have all seen most assuredly in rescue, but I am sure others have seen this as well. Distinct and different is easy to accept when they are of completely different breeds - oh, here is the Husky dad, here is the Lab dad kind of thing, but more difficult if people are housing similar types of dogs, such as a Dutch Shepherd or DS mix, and an American BYB GSD.
 

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Malcolm Willis -- geneticist specializing in GSD would have some comments -- when I have a moment I'll see if I can find some comments .

Collies for example are sable (one of the colours) but it is not the same sable as the GSD.

copied "Brindle -- question for the genetics wizards
by jc.carroll on 12 July 2010 - 13:42
jc.carroll

Posts: 798
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 02:39 pm
On the topic of brindle... I'm trying to understand something.

I know that it's on the K locus, however I'm wondering the difference between dominant black which -would- mask the brindle gene. Dominant black is located on the K-locus.
The K-locus has three genes; K=dominant black, k(br)=brindle, and k = non-solid black which allows the A locus to be expressed.

The GSD is one of the few breeds that has recessive black, located on the A-locus. Sable is also located on the A-locus.
The A-locus is as follows: A(y) = sable, a(w) = agouti (which looks like sable), a(s) =saddle pattern, a(t) = tan points, and a = recessive black


The Belgian Terv is supposed to carry both forms of black. I believe labrador retrievers do as well because I used to work with them, and brindle occurs, albeit infrequently, in purebred labradors. Sable and brindle could theoretically co-exist together in genotype, but I don't know what the resulting dog would look like. Recessive black can be expressed only if both parents carry the gene... Dominant black will be expressed if only one or the other parents is black.




So my question is: how can it be proved (or disproved) that certain workinglines could carry dominant black, and therefore express brindle on rare occasion? Can it be proved that dominant black, which is typical for most breeds, with rare exceptions like the GSD, does not exist in GSD bloodlines?
for anyone who has the book - quote "j.c.carroll,
according to Malcolm Willis (1991), the brindle gene is located on the E or Extension Series. It is called e-br. See page 40/41 if you happen to have his book "The Genetic History".
Chris

follow the discussion Brindle -- question for the genetics wizards - Page 1
Dominant Black K is also found in GSDs (or at least it is claimed to be,eg vogerland dogs) so it could be very possible that the Brindle is hiding somewhere underneath those dominant black dogs?
 

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Dominant Black K is also found in GSDs (or at least it is claimed to be,eg vogerland dogs) so it could be very possible that the Brindle is hiding somewhere underneath those dominant black dogs?
But just from the amount of breeding that goes on, you figure you'd see a lot more brindles if the brindle was hiding underneath the dominant black. There are breeders out there that will only breed black dogs, their litters would have to have brindles if it existed every once in a while.
 

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