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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Oh boy... to be honest, I could start a waiting list for people that would take Puppies from Indra & Yukon, even though he is not titled.
And those are not pet-homes. Those would be working-homes with a real job. To be specific SAR -Homes.

Now I am wondering, if I did that. Despite him not being titled, and his pups would actually go into working homes... would I still be an irresponsible BYB?

Both come from great working lines. Both have the drive and what it takes. Indra is in training and will be certified and I have no doubt about that. I am completely hooked on SAR.
And with those people that are honestly interested it gets more and more tempting to actually do it.

So I am debating whether or not to get her spayed, whether or not to breed them two. Now if she has bad hips (Yukon has excellent hips and ellbows by the way) that would make it very easy. I'd actually get her spayed right there at the vet and wouldn't wait for the OFA evaluation.

Now that is something I can see myself actually doing...

So, what would you call it if those pups go into working home but the male wasn't titled at all and all he has is health clearance?

Ps: in the end I always do the right thing, whatever the right thing is. I know I tend to over-debate-discuss things... i like getting lots and lots of opinions to see it from every possible perspective.
 

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I would wait at mimimum until they are both certified SAR dogs and have a BH and maybe a CD or something.

And also consider who is asking for you....I'm assuming people from your team?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I would wait at mimimum until they are both certified SAR dogs and have a BH and maybe a CD or something.

And also consider who is asking for you....I'm assuming people from your team?
Well, Yukon is too old for SAR. He's six years old. I actually discussed that with one of my team-members already but he is not too old for other titles.

IF I do it, I would wait until she is at least two and a half or three years old. By then she should already be certified and we will have the OFA evaluation.
 

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You could title him in some other working avenue.

Also, are you sure they would be a good match for each other or do you just like the simplicity of having a stud and bitch in the same place?

Also think abou if you'd really want to be selling the people interested in them a dog...if you know what I mean.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
You could title him in some other working avenue.

Also, are you sure they would be a good match for each other or do you just like the simplicity of having a stud and bitch in the same place?

Also think abou if you'd really want to be selling the people interested in them a dog...if you know what I mean.
From the lines, they'd be a great match. My dad looked into Indras Pedigree and he already said that he would be very interested in seeing pups out of both of them.

The linebreeding would be to Gildo. It would be fourth and fifth Generation
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c134/RosesChealsy/YukonvomBrenfang.jpg
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/519228/Indra-vom-Sattelberg

It's definitely not because it's convenient to have a sire and a female at home :)
 

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what about doing some AKC titles on Yukon??? the tracking plus the obedience CD or CDX - those, plus hips & elbows - maybe even a show rating (yes, in the adult untitled class - does not matter for Koer) and a BH???? There is a show in May in Buffalo - Herr Wilfred Scheld is the judge/koermeister....

the RH1 should be doable for both of them as well.....not it is not Schutzhund - but a nice little group of credentials just the same ....

Lee
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
what about doing some AKC titles on Yukon??? the tracking plus the obedience CD or CDX - those, plus hips & elbows - maybe even a show rating (yes, in the adult untitled class - does not matter for Koer) and a BH???? There is a show in May in Buffalo - Herr Wilfred Scheld is the judge/koermeister....

the RH1 should be doable for both of them as well.....not it is not Schutzhund - but a nice little group of credentials just the same ....

Lee
Would I need his papers and have him AKC registered to participate in that show? The papers are still with the SV and without them I can't get him registered with the AKC. If I can participate without him being AKC registered and having the papers on hand, I will definitely show him :D
If I can't do it there, I'll simply do match showings until I get his papers.
I can most certainly get him titled in obedience, the BH and Tracking.
 

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I guess it depends on one's interpretation of a BYB. For instance the breeder I got Zoe from had both parents OFA'd, health tested, both dogs are from strong well known working lines, and have simple OB titles, but no real working titles. By many people's definition she is from a BYB.

When I think BYB I think of owners with oops litters or who just threw any two dogs together, do not do any health testing at all, and don't bother to vet the mom and.or pups. So without titles some will call you a BYB, but then again others will not. You could definitely get some titles on both of them though you have plenty of time:)
 

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The lack of papers may be a problem with registering the puppies. You will need Yukon's SV papers to get his AKC papers. Please remind me why Yukon's registration is at issue?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I suppose that a certified SAR dog should have credentials enough to be breedworthy.

When I look at what kind of training we are going through only in this month, I wouldn't even have the time to get from one place to another to do both actively. I do Schutzhund for fun, not because I want to compete. Indra loves doing bitework and that is why I am visiting the Greg Doud workshop.

I can start showing her. Both don't know how to stack yet, so that would need to be trained but I simply have to get my butt up and start doing it.

Obedience title... if I really keep doing what I'm doing now, it shouldn't be an issue at all. My main goal is, however, to get Indra and myself certified as a K9 SAR Team.

If I ever breed both of them. I can't tell. It's a possibility but I wouldn't count on it.

I am just curious what others think about the pedigree both would produce. You have to admit it's a nice working dog pedigree, isn't it?

However, first her hips need to be cleared. :)
 

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That's right - I forgot that he is in your mom's name and she hasn't gotten around to signing him over!!! You need the AKC registration to show in AKC events....did you bring a scorebook for him??? If you did and can do the BH and RH that would be more than sufficient to go for those....ooops - is the scorebook on the back of his pink papers????

lee
 

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Discussion Starter #13
That's right - I forgot that he is in your mom's name and she hasn't gotten around to signing him over!!! You need the AKC registration to show in AKC events....did you bring a scorebook for him??? If you did and can do the BH and RH that would be more than sufficient to go for those....ooops - is the scorebook on the back of his pink papers????

lee
I have no score-book and no papers. However I sent an email to the SV and CC'ed my mother that I would like to show him in Buffalo and how long it would take to get the papers here and get him AKC registered via the SV IF my mother signs him over to me. Maybe that'll get her off her butt.

If not, I honestly don't know what to do to get the papers. The papers belong to the dog, that is what she always said. And it can't seriously be that hard to send them a darn fax...
 

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Discussion Starter #15
The lack of papers may be a problem with registering the puppies. You will need Yukon's SV papers to get his AKC papers. Please remind me why Yukon's registration is at issue?
Well, his papers never made it back in the first place. The SV said they sent them back to my mother but she has never received them. And now that I have him I could get a second copy but for that my mother needs to send them a fax or an email that he is mine and that she signs him over to me.
Everytime I talk to her I ask her to do it and everytime she forgot because of all the work they have. I can understand but at one point...come on. I have him for pretty much two years now... that's plenty of time to send them a single fax, especially since there are so many more possibilities I have.


I even thought about getting him certified as a Therapy Dog. :wub:
 

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Discussion Starter #16
If your father thinks it would be a good breeding, that is good enough for me.:)
I feel the same way. So far he has been right with everything he said and he has a sense for dogs barely anyone has. He looks at a dog and simply knows. It's scary.
When I bought Indra. I wasn't sure what he would say. I did that on my own. I did the research and everything on my own just from what I have learned from him. He looked at her and approved. That's all I needed to know.
 

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it is very different for AKC - you can't get a 'registered' kennel name unless you have bred a certain number (5??) of litters - not like the SV where you have to have one to breed!!! You just make one up and use it! If you are a USA member, you can register one with them....

Lee
 

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I may have missed it-- does Yukon work? IMO if you have two dogs who have jobs and are good at them and all of the appropriate health titles are in place and you have people who want puppies to work, that makes you a responsible breeder. In my mind, titles are a proxy for work, not the other way around.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Not yet. In Germany I rehabilitated him from the abuse and started working him in different fields. I started to track him and that what he is really good at. Also he has a lot of hunting drive and is persistent.

I talked to a team-member and she said I could start working him towards certification but by the time he'd be certified, he'd probably be 8 years old and no one wants an 8 year old SAR dog. However, since he's always at the training as well, I don't think anyone would say something if I simply took him out of the car and did the same thing we do with the others. Who knows, maybe he's going to surprise everybody. He's completely healthy and a 7 or 8 year old dog is not to old to go out into the field as police dogs show all the time, right? :)

It just would be much easier to concentrate on one thing and not having to jump through hoops to drive from one side of the State to the other just to work them in another field. If I look at the Calender, it's packed and I wouldn't even know where to take the time from.
 
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