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Discussion Starter #1
I've tried getting advice on documenting something on two other places and have basicly been told MYOB. Protecting my dogs IS my business...as is IMO seeing a red zone dog created. But will take me out of it and would like to hear what *you* think and what *you* would do. I will add here I have a life and do not spend it watching anyone else - but due to *their* complaints of my dogs barking I move quicker than before when they bark...and it is *NEVER WITHOUT REASON*.

Yesterday afternoon you check your dog that barked and see a (teenager) kid in a pen in back with the pup...thnking he was playing with her before leaving her in there...until you saw *another pit pup* looking much like her in the pen, facing off. There's no video camera available and no one would believe a quiet little town with most people gone would have anything illegal happen. He shoves one towards another with a foot, couldn't see what the 2 were doing but their other mutt was acting like he was about to see a fight. He kept looking around as if to see if he was being watched - then came and tied her back up at the same place (where she can tresspass).

This morning a different dog, chained to the back deck to keep him from getting to the fence where above dog is lounging (on our property) - as bringing the small dog in look up to see *YES* **TWO** dogs. One was tied within range of the female. The kid handler roughs them up playing then when they're biting legs and arms says "GOOD DOGS!". When they begin snapping at each other for attention he backs off "GOOD DOGS!!" until the GSmix moves in to break it up. He kicks the GS repeatedly saying "NO leave him alone!" (GS has some issues broiling too).

Then puts one bowl of food down...in range of both then after letting them eat boots it over to the female - which of course leaves the male lunging, snapping, snarling and frustrated out of his mind. He's smiling and saying "GOOD BOY!!" repeatedly. Then pushing the female to him.

this is in a small town - no one is around during the day' the back side of the property is now a store so no one can see from there or from the front or clearly from the street one house down the other way...which leaves your yard as the main one that gets to see this.

There isn't fighting - yet. You're expressly forbidden from saying anything to the "children".


If this male months later gets ahold of my very non-fighting sheltie or even the GSD what kind of chance do you really think my sheltie stands of living or the GSD of not being badly injured?

There was also fighting roosters kept at the residence last year - removed due to complaints of crowing...they complained their pets for eggs were made to leave. Ever see a rooster lay an egg? No one else saw that either but the crowing resulted in them forced to move.
The dogs don't crow...and even with the agression make no noise.

So you approach 2 groups of dog people asking for help and advice and get MYOB. Suffice to say the dogs involved are higher on the BSL list than GSD. Suffice to say informing the insurance of it is not an option because - well - we have a GSD. Animal control is unlikely to do anything because of one report, the dog hasn't done anything yet and - well no one else sees it.

I don't especially want people crawling on my property either. If there wasn't already a property line issue building and I had the extra $$ I'd HAPPILY put up a solid 8' fence and be done with it...the line is an issue because I'm trying to plant shrubs on our side of the line and one of these dogs is tied to an overhead line so she's most of the time on our property where the shrubs are going.

Ignore it? Chalk it up to difference of opinion? Listen to insults about how much you don't know about dogs?
What would you do?
 

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Quote:What would you do?
After reading that?! Buy the biggest shotgun I could find, pull up a rocking chair, and make it a point to sit outside in full view of those kooks, shining it nonchalantly, day in and day out.

Seriously though, I'd start videotaping them without them knowing, then start mailing off copies of the tapes to the town mayor, the local news, the local police, the sheriffs, the not-so-local news, the governor, then go up the food chain until someone does something. This can only end badly.

Oh, and perhaps move.
 

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Originally Posted By: DianaMAfter reading that?! Buy the biggest shotgun I could find, pull up a rocking chair, and make it a point to sit outside in full view of those kooks, shining it nonchalantly, day in and day out.

Seriously though, I'd start videotaping them without them knowing, then start mailing off copies of the tapes to the town mayor, the local news, the local police, the sheriffs, the not-so-local news, the governor, then go up the food chain until someone does something.
Sound advice on both parts. I'd get at least two cameras mounted - one to cover that area and one to cover the ground between your house and theirs. Never EVER leave your dogs outside unattended.
 

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All it would take is for the video to hit the local news....in a larger town that actually cares. I also live in a small town and would never report to the local media, I would however go to the nearest tv station that would be likely to report on it or even do their own investigation.

Oh, and if you do mount survelience cameras there is nothing wrong with using the video used to protect your property...and if you just happen to tape illegal activity. well too bad they were that stupid.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Part 2 then - is there a chance of it being turned around for videotaping a minor without consent? This is a teenager old enough to know better - but the last thing I need is a pedophile charge because of some loophole. The parents will almost surely deny anything and are not out there.

It'd mean $200 for a camera as I don't have one - or a cell phone...and will mean certain death of these dogs if confiscated. The only positive I see is it removes the dogs from being teased (even if to death) and prevents a possible mauling. But no winners
 

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Are there any pit bull rescues near you? they may have some suggestions, I surely believe they would not want any dog remotely connected to pit bulls to be one more tragedy
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I know of some rescues but not pitbull rescues. But the people will not give them up; and if taken by force as authorities will do they will be taken to the shelter and will be put down because no pitbulls are allowed to leave the shelter to other homes because of the fighting problem - they don't want the dogs ending up bait or fighters. I do remember an article on that last year at the height of the Michael Vick thing...and these are pitbulls.

I was trying to leave breed out because IMO breed does not matter - aggression is aggression. But we know aggression in certain breeds is viewed differently than in others. Last summer he mentioned the one had a grand champion pedigree and at the time it didn't click - I have a show dog so am thinking show. I find a far more sinister reference to "grand champion pedigree".

I cannot in good conscience remove this dog, even though IMO it'd be best for her/them....they haven't been totally ruined. But alas it's a very sticky situation and one that the only options I see mean the dogs die. They're less than a year old.


The other problem - the folks with anything that look like the breed are leading the MYOB chant as I don't know anything about facing off dogs and it's done with terriers as show dogs and isn't about aggression.
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Is there a bush or tree right near where they do their "dog training?" If so, install a bird house or bird feeder, aim the camera on that, then you can send it to the media with the innocent remark of "All I wanted to do was watch birds and I end up with kids teaching their dogs to kill each other!"

Or put up a couple cameras, that way you have a true surveillance network and not a "peeping tom" cam. Whatever it takes to get these idiots busted while you remain within the law.
 

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I was not trying to stereotype, I agree with you that the breed shouldnt be punished, I was just thinking that a rescue that specialized in them might be able to do more, or think of something overlooked. As far as the rest, I know your frustration, I called the cops on my neighbors more than once. The abuse of these animals should not be tolerated regardless of breed.

Call the national humane society and/or the SPCA and tell them these animals are being abused and send them footage. I dont think these people want the media camped in their front yard expecally after Vick. The animals can be saved, the pit bull rescue in CA came and got many of Vicks dogs and have been rehabbing them.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
well there's 3 large trees on the property line - 2 of them have the rope where one of these dogs was tied...but with those sitting basicly on the property line that's dicey. However, one of the reasons for putting these shrubs up was the birds (the other benefits are obvious!) and now that my cats are caged/confined I can feed the birds - if they don't shoot 'em with the BB gun like any other 'target' the kid sees. No I don't leave my dogs out much - have a 60X80 yard my dogs can no longer safely play in without supervision. Not just for their physical protection but so there's no claim "your dog bit me". A few months ago the mom said my "wolf looking" one nipped her. I have nothing that looks like a wolf - a sheltie, a fox terrier, a couple border collies, GSD (finally got her on my avatar with her toy) and a couple black mutts. Not wolf in sight. But protecting my dogs from accusation has been a concern for months as well as from BBs.


But will look into some creative camera work.

Betsy I agree - and went to a bully BSL list I was on for feedback first. The amount of "you misunderstand" and "MYOB" or "don't look at them" floored me. I quit the group - and can picture the neighborhood reaction if Bella acted like that male was this morning. I think preventing is always better and these two are not that far 'gone' - yet. But then finding someone who gets it of what very likely will be is not likely either.

Thus far it's stupid but not really illegal - well kicking the GSD X imo was verrry borderline. But then I keep hitting turnabout being fair play....and there's things I do that could be twisted also. Like using a longe whip with my fox terrier - yes he's so abused that when I get it and go to the yard he runs *TO* it to chase the lash in whatever way I make it go. But you know how people can be and I don't want a neighborhood war but on the other hand it'll be far worse and far uglier without action.

Who said the right things are easy.
 

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I generally agree with what people have said here -- videotape what you can.

I disagree with one statement OP made. She said "there isn't fighting." Oh, yes there is. When they have one dog biting the legs of the other, and rewarding that behavior, there IS fighting.
 

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How many bully boards have you posted to? You might want to look a bit further. I joined 2 when I wanted insights on my Amer Bulldog. I haven't read anything on either of those boards that would condone what you've described. The members seem very aware of the need for good temperaments in these breeds & the need to promote responsible owners/breeders.

Are you certain AC won't respond to a single complaint, especially given the notoriety of dog fighting? They do here, even though many of these 'single complaints' originate from people with a grudge. (I'm NOT implying that's the case here)

Of course IF you do make a report & it's acted on, you're at risk of retaliation...ie your neighbors reporting you every time your dogs bark, whine, crap or look their way. Report, YES! But be especially vigilant regarding your pack's behavior & NEVER let them out unsupervised. (Those vile enough to fight dogs could easily be nasty enough to poison them)
 

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Quote:(Those vile enough to fight dogs could easily be nasty enough to poison them)
Wouldn't hurt to start walking the yard every day, checking for "fallen treats." Watch your back. Do you have some good neighbors? Wouldn't hurt to discuss some of this with them (at your discretion), that way there are more pairs of eyes watching.

As much as I despise them, I think mailing a video to PETA wouldn't be a bad idea. They're rabid about this sort of thing, after all. If anyone can make a stink, PETA can. EDIT: ESPECIALLY if you also tell PETA that your local officials ignored this. PETA would be all over this like fur on an Old English.
 

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You know Diane I usually despise PETA too, but this may be a good use for them. I think what is needed here is a little shake up. and PETA could sure enough do that!!
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I will not go the PeTA route - my own dogs come first and with a show dog that's just not an option Good point about walking the yard. The dog didn't bite the legs of the other dog - he was nipping the hands and legs of the handler!

I took a deep breath and advised the owner of the property we're both buying from. "So - they can do whatever they want with their dog." I was stunned and said it is a felony if it goes that far. "I can't do anything about that...it's not my problem." So there is zero backup there.

And as the complaint from people with a grudge - I know that's how it will be portrayed - and that isn't the case. I'm not cold enough to condemn two dogs that haven't yet done anything wrong to death because of people disagreements.

I do have a good neighbor - across the street. He's a detective and small town politics come into play - it'd put him in a bad situation too with work/home too close together. I'm riding harder on my dogs than ever before as for behavior and all.

Will need to work on the proof thing...and watch especially hard that my three little canine "snitches" stay up on the deck. Am looking at some ideas and trying to hopefully get those dogs out alive and legal or at least change their behavior towards the dogs, which I don't hold a lot of hope for.

It just absolutely blows my mind someone can be informed the seriousness of it and think "so what". I **SO** do not understand this state. Don't drink beer on Sunday but fight your dogs in the back yard and we can't stop it. sorry - sarcasm slipping out.
 

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If this was me .. as soon as I saw this, I would have started recording it on a camera, phone etc. Then, I would have yelled "WTF do you think you are doing? I have evidence of what you are doing and it's going to the police especially if anything happens to any of those dogs." I've done this with much less serious behaviour. I have been threatened and given the finger for objecting to behaviour like this and while I know that Australia is not yet quite as prone to the retaliatary violence prevalent in the US, it has always stopped that behaviour. I admit it probably still goes on but certainly not in areas I can observe and play a part in stopping.

I guess I have got to the age (>40 &< 50) that my own mortality is not of a major concern to me, especially when it does not affect my loved ones. So, now I iterate what I feel and I'm not going to accept bad behaviour from anyone without taking a stand. Most of the people who treat animals in this way are cowards and will back off when there are known consequences. If they don't, I am willling to pay the price for letting them know that I (at least) will not let that behaviour continue when I know it is occuring.
 

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The problem with this advice is the proximity of the situation to the OP's home. I for one, take the US military's approach to any situation that can cause retaliation of any kind... I DON'T want a fair fight, especially with individuals that have no respect for life. The mindset and psychological profile of people that are willing to inflict the pain and abuse that you need to in order to get dogs to fight like this is the exact same profile of serial killers and rapists. Add in the fact that they are teenagers and you end up with deviants with no clue about real life. I want the cards so stacked in my favor that there's no chance I can lose. I would ensure my home is secure 100% of the time and install camera's before doing or saying anything. Especially since this is a rural area. Guns help. No, I'm not kidding.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thanks Zeus.
I don't have the funds right now to go get a video camera unfortunately - I did look and found one that would work - $220 and about 45 minutes away. Earlier this month a vehicle went out and I had to replace it -and haven't had a chance to build back up those savings. We do have guns in the home; they're uneasy about Bella so she deters some without *doing* anything (and she's also here inside most of the time now).

I'm fully aware that right now without proof of a fight there's little that can be done. I know it'd be explained away as a "misunderstanding" because so many dog people do (not on here) or a "neighborhood dispute".

I have learned that although it's illegal to have a dangerous/red zone/whatever label dog it is *not* illegal to **create** one and until it takes someone down (human) there's "nothing we can do" seems to get repeated. I'm not ok with that no matter what breed is involved.

These dogs have a chance of being family dogs now - 6-8-12 months later of this they won't. Further it affects insurance for all of us when dogs attack...so I do think in a way it is our business as dog owners. Especially of a breed that is often targeted for BSL no matter the individual. And I think it's a shame that until the dog attacks a human theres "nothing that can be done."

I'm still documenting - and do plan on getting a camera although the dogs are moved now. I also wrote to a legislator to see if there was a way to legally close that window. I *hate* that option - and made it clear I was not talking about play wrestling with a pet dog or Schutzhund training or other activities - but about teasing and teaching aggression. I can't believe now this is the only case...and how many of the dogs that "just snapped" really just snapped? I'm sure it does happen...but when it's preventable early it seems like it's a win for everyone. I can't prove, even with a video of what I've seen so far, that it's fight training. But it's clearly aggression training.

The teenager has little to no respect for anyone. He and buddies were having BB gun fights the other day in the street shooting *across* the main street coming into town, with no way to tell if there was oncoming traffic due to visibility at that intersection. My dogs do not like this kid or his dad - at all. That's been the case since they moved in a year and a half or so ago.

It's clear the male is being set to win whatever conflict arises. And a year or so ago there were several arsons in town...I don't know if it's happened recently as that wasn't in the papers but there is one house about 2 blocks away that was definitely set fire to. So I'd be lying to say that's not in the back of my mind knowing I'll be gone a couple times this summer.

I agree qyn they're cowards. But continuing to say anything to the teen after twice now being told not to - *I* will be the one in trouble to say anything more direct. The adults do not come out when this is going on - little stiffer penalties there for adults.

I don't trust them, I'm taking steps to further protect my dogs and property and take back being able to be outside with my dogs.
I appreciate the discussion and feedback. It's nice to see some do "get it" and are willing to discuss it rather than just shrug and say nothing can be done. I'm not willing to blindly by label have Bella or other dogs grouped with dogs that are taught aggression...and find it amazing that until a person is attacked or their caught at a fight "nothing can be done." I think that's scarier than the situation - as how many of these are simmering around the state and country?
 

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I know I am speaking from a different country and (as I said) we do not currently have the same level of retaliatary consequences that the US has but ...... it is not very far away. I am not saying anyone should act as I would but --- I do act before I think sometimes.

We live two doors away from a shopping complex and there are many underhanded practices going on in the carpark associated with this. I do send a spotlight down to where this is happening and I have personally confronted offenders. I also complain to the owners of the property, so there is a record of these practices. I will probably pay a price for my actions but, so far, those I have confronted have moved on - possibly to another site as their activites clearly have a market.

I do not say anyone should behave as I do and I truly understand why anyone would not. But I act on my anger even if there is the possibility of retaliatory action.
 
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