German Shepherds Forum banner

1 - 20 of 39 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
587 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Ok peeps, thanks for the prong collar help. Now I would like to train recall using a long leash or lead. If you are familiar with this training, I would love to know what leash you use and how long? Also very open to any tips on training, first time training recall like this.

Thanks in advance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,368 Posts
6'. You need to teach to come back to you before you add distance. Then I play games with them. A reward is ALWAYS given on the return. I toss food away and them call them back.

Once they know that, I put a 15' drag line on and play 2 ball. Throw the ball to get them to go away, and call them back for the other.

In addition to a recall, I teach a down. those two are my safety commands. Most times I down them before I will recall them.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,503 Posts
I like horse lead ropes for drag line stuff. There's no handle loop, so there's nothing to tangle up.

You can put a knot in the end, or anywhere, so you can step on it and the dog gets checked.

They're thick and chunky so you can hold onto them and operate the clasp in thick mittens. Since winter is coming.....

Not fancy, not high tech, but I like them. You can find them at any farm supply store.

https://www.amazon.com/Weaver-Leather-Poly-Value-Lead/dp/B075B3RB3N?ref_=fsclp_pl_dp_2
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,856 Posts
I use flat nylon tubing that is 1" wide with a brass clip on the end. I get 30' lines. You can always loop up a section in your hand if you want it shorter. I also cut any loop off the end so the dog can drag the line without it getting caught up on things. I typically use a harness when using a long line unless training tracking. Not a front clip harness or a no pull or whatever, just a regular rear clip harness.

I train a motivational recall, meaning I am just more fun and interesting than anything else. The long line is just there to not allow the dog to fail. My goal is to never have to use it, but that rarely happens. I also train recall using a restrained recall method that Michael Ellis shows in one of his videos.

I pretty much use a long line for everything outside except loose leash walking and heel training. I always walk my dogs on a long line. They get so much more exercise and enjoy themselves more because they can flop around and be dogs without having to march along beside me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
587 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
6'. You need to teach to come back to you before you add distance. Then I play games with them. A reward is ALWAYS given on the return. I toss food away and them call them back.

Once they know that, I put a 15' drag line on and play 2 ball. Throw the ball to get them to go away, and call them back for the other.

In addition to a recall, I teach a down. those two are my safety commands. Most times I down them before I will recall them.
Ok, 6 feet to start. When he doesn't "come", pull on the prong all the way back or a once tug?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
587 Posts
Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
I use flat nylon tubing that is 1" wide with a brass clip on the end. I get 30' lines. You can always loop up a section in your hand if you want it shorter. I also cut any loop off the end so the dog can drag the line without it getting caught up on things. I typically use a harness when using a long line unless training tracking. Not a front clip harness or a no pull or whatever, just a regular rear clip harness.

I train a motivational recall, meaning I am just more fun and interesting than anything else. The long line is just there to not allow the dog to fail. My goal is to never have to use it, but that rarely happens. I also train recall using a restrained recall method that Michael Ellis shows in one of his videos.

I pretty much use a long line for everything outside except loose leash walking and heel training. I always walk my dogs on a long line. They get so much more exercise and enjoy themselves more because they can flop around and be dogs without having to march along beside me.
Thanks David. So you don't teach recall with a prong? Frisco is pretty stubborn with recall, like all puppies his age. He also has very little ball drive, and I don't think he will, so it's food rewards at the moment. I will check out ME's video tonight.

EDIT: I re-read and see you don't use a prong or correction. So I assume when they don't come - you pull them back?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
587 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
I like horse lead ropes for drag line stuff. There's no handle loop, so there's nothing to tangle up.

You can put a knot in the end, or anywhere, so you can step on it and the dog gets checked.

They're thick and chunky so you can hold onto them and operate the clasp in thick mittens. Since winter is coming.....

Not fancy, not high tech, but I like them. You can find them at any farm supply store.

https://www.amazon.com/Weaver-Leather-Poly-Value-Lead/dp/B075B3RB3N?ref_=fsclp_pl_dp_2
Thanks, yes winter is coming, so this could be handy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,368 Posts
Faren is just over 1 and I'm just starting to use a ball as a reward. Food drive is great. You can restart the game much faster using food.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
587 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Faren is just over 1 and I'm just starting to use a ball as a reward. Food drive is great. You can restart the game much faster using food.
Yeah, my breeder says ball drive will come, I am not so sure. Even tug with ball on a rope, he would rather tug the rope! Maybe a showline thing? We will see as he gets older. I do wish he had some ball drive! Selfishly, it's fun and easy for me to get him some exercise. My last GSD had crazy ball drive (and frisbee), so this is new to me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,368 Posts
Well, I just started Faren on the ball because she has crazy ball drive and I needed a way to control it (the OUT) and training is easier with food to teach. It's a faster restart, rapid fire reward, easier to break the training down into pieces, just all around easier.


FYI - if you make a game of it, 99% of the time they will come back. Yes, just a light tug to get their attention. It's up to you to be more interesting than dirt and get them to want to come back.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,595 Posts
Mine are usually dragging a long line if I want to train or work on anything. I never use it to reel or pull them in though. What I've done is 2 things, a formal recall to a front and a casual recall to just come near or move with me. The front you can teach just by having them come into a sit in front from a down, as a position. Add a little distance and sometimes back up as I lure them into it. The casual, I use two ball as a foundation and I turn sideways to them with a release command and throw the ball as they run past. Then I can alternate between formal and casual so that the always run to me, and depending on my position, come front or run by. It keeps them motivated and attentive to me.

There's a little more foundation I left out, the two ball starts as soon as I bring them home and I call and encourage them to come to me here and there from the first time I put on a leash, but its all motivational.

Something else you can do to create some value to recalling on command, hang out in the yard and randomly call him to you for reward, release and ignore him until you call him again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
587 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Mine are usually dragging a long line if I want to train or work on anything. I never use it to reel or pull them in though. What I've done is 2 things, a formal recall to a front and a casual recall to just come near or move with me. The front you can teach just by having them come into a sit in front from a down, as a position. Add a little distance and sometimes back up as I lure them into it. The casual, I use two ball as a foundation and I turn sideways to them with a release command and throw the ball as they run past. Then I can alternate between formal and casual so that the always run to me, and depending on my position, come front or run by. It keeps them motivated and attentive to me.



There's a little more foundation I left out, the two ball starts as soon as I bring them home and I call and encourage them to come to me here and there from the first time I put on a leash, but its all motivational.



Something else you can do to create some value to recalling on command, hang out in the yard and randomly call him to you for reward, release and ignore him until you call him again.


Thanks Steve. I have no problem with reward recall (food). The problem is he ignores the command a lot when there is no food. I’m trying to get him to recall with no food. I guess I could try randomly rewarding him and weaning off. It also just may be a puppy thing. Recall is the hardest with pups. We had a litter reunion Saturday and everyone is in the same boat.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,368 Posts
If everyone is in the same boat then I suspect the drive of the puppies is just not there naturally. You'll need to work harder to engage your dog to want to come to you. The key word there is Engage. It's up to you to create an environment were he wants to come running back to you.

Put a flat collar on him and a 6' leash. Throw a piece of food within the 6' range, step after him, tap him on the butt to get his attention (because the food toss directs him away from you), call his name and move backwards so he's coming towards you. Reward a lot.

Get him to chase food in your hand. Show him the food and then move away from his so he's trying to get to your hand. Once he learns that, then you jumping away and turning your back on him so he has to come search out your hand.

I feel that engagement, or lack of, is 95% of most people's issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
587 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
If everyone is in the same boat then I suspect the drive of the puppies is just not there naturally. You'll need to work harder to engage your dog to want to come to you. The key word there is Engage. It's up to you to create an environment were he wants to come running back to you.

Put a flat collar on him and a 6' leash. Throw a piece of food within the 6' range, step after him, tap him on the butt to get his attention (because the food toss directs him away from you), call his name and move backwards so he's coming towards you. Reward a lot.

Get him to chase food in your hand. Show him the food and then move away from his so he's trying to get to your hand. Once he learns that, then you jumping away and turning your back on him so he has to come search out your hand.

I feel that engagement, or lack of, is 95% of most people's issues.
Thanks, this is exactly what our breeder told us to do. Before we brought him home and at the two litter reunion training sessions. Especially the food in hand and the constant engaging movement. We definitely need to do this more. Got it.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,856 Posts
I use flat nylon tubing that is 1" wide with a brass clip on the end. I get 30' lines. You can always loop up a section in your hand if you want it shorter. I also cut any loop off the end so the dog can drag the line without it getting caught up on things. I typically use a harness when using a long line unless training tracking. Not a front clip harness or a no pull or whatever, just a regular rear clip harness.

I train a motivational recall, meaning I am just more fun and interesting than anything else. The long line is just there to not allow the dog to fail. My goal is to never have to use it, but that rarely happens. I also train recall using a restrained recall method that Michael Ellis shows in one of his videos.

I pretty much use a long line for everything outside except loose leash walking and heel training. I always walk my dogs on a long line. They get so much more exercise and enjoy themselves more because they can flop around and be dogs without having to march along beside me.
Thanks David. So you don't teach recall with a prong? Frisco is pretty stubborn with recall, like all puppies his age. He also has very little ball drive, and I don't think he will, so it's food rewards at the moment. I will check out ME's video tonight.

EDIT: I re-read and see you don't use a prong or correction. So I assume when they don't come - you pull them back?
I never teach recall with a prong. I will correct a blown off command after the dog is solid on communication and the behavior I'm asking for, but I teach almost everything in a way that mostly looks like playing with the dog.

I typically do 4-5 training sessions a day plus random rewards for behaviors I want to reinforce. I always reward engagement and I find things the dog likes to do and train using those things whenever possible. If a dogs favorite thing is bite work, I'll use a bite as a reward for obedience. If it's favorite thing is to go outside, it's going to run through commands until it gets to the beginning of frustration and then get rewarded by getting what it wants. Ball is fun, ok. Food, you got it. Attention, sure. Flirt pole, sounds like fun. Frisbee. Tug. Car ride. Boat ride. Spinning in circles...

Let the dog dictate the reward. Use your imagination on how to implement those things your dog finds rewarding into your routine.

The exception to this is if I'm working with an older dog with little drive for anything, then I'll teach recall with an e-collar and proof it for safety.

I do teach lose leash walking with a prong because it only takes about 5 minutes and I use that to introduce leash pressure and eventually collar corrections. Up until that point, I reward for the dog being in a heel and I teach a finish and front through luring and then reinforce them later with an e-collar (NePoPo) or prong.

Somebody mentioned engagement, and I can't say enough about this. The relationship you have with your dog directly influences their desire to do what you want them to do. It's a hard thing for me to put into words. I can explain the physical things I do with a particular dog to help establish our relationship (engagement) but I can't explain how to read the dog to gain the understanding of what it really wants at that given moment in time. I actively bills a relationship with the dog every moment I can. I also try my best to behave in a way that is predictable and that the dog understands.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
32,252 Posts
Will he tug? We use restrained recalls to build drive to come to the handler in flyball, it's actually one of the very first things we do with a green dog. For dogs who aren't into tugging (for super ball motivated dogs we'll use a ball on a rope), we use a high value food reward instead, like meatballs or cheese. But toys generally get a faster, more enthusiastic response than food for dogs that are so inclined.

Agility trainer and top competitor Susan Garrett has an article on how to create a motivating toy: https://www.clickerdogs.com/createamotivatingtoy.htm
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
505 Posts
So much excellent advice above, I will very humbly add a few tidbits.
What happens if you run away, call your dog & run, will he enjoy chasing you? That is a non-food reward.
Have you tried building drive for food--chase the food. There are food-stuffable toys (my dog's only tug & fetch toy is a food-stuffable frisbee) that you can load, tease, deliver food & eventually turn into fetch & tug games.
You can use luring with food to turn it into a game. Meagan Karnes/Collared Scholar occassional gives free online seminars, Leerburg website likely has video's on this.
Write down all the things your dog loves, including activities, set your dog up to earn these with a recall.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
577 Posts
I don't use a prong for a recall, or a correction of any kind.
NO prong? I was kind of second guessing my prong use on recall. (I've only used it a couple times, and it seemed to not be the right method after I used it a couple times) Irn doing a ton of work with him in my room where i throw the stick then call him right away. He's doing great. I've just started bringing him outside and doing it and he really listens most of the time. This is a great thread to give me some tips. You say no correction? Got it.

One question: what do I do if he is off leash and not coming after I've called him. Sometimes(only every once in a while) he completely ignores me, or pretends to run toward me then turns at the last minute. (Smarty pants. ;) What do I do then? Just keep calling till he comes then do the regular praise stuff?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,368 Posts
NO prong? I was kind of second guessing my prong use on recall. (I've only used it a couple times, and it seemed to not be the right method after I used it a couple times) Irn doing a ton of work with him in my room where i throw the stick then call him right away. He's doing great. I've just started bringing him outside and doing it and he really listens most of the time. This is a great thread to give me some tips. You say no correction? Got it.

One question: what do I do if he is off leash and not coming after I've called him. Sometimes(only every once in a while) he completely ignores me, or pretends to run toward me then turns at the last minute. (Smarty pants. ;) What do I do then? Just keep calling till he comes then do the regular praise stuff?
You can teach it with compulsion. I don't.

.You don't let him off leash when he doesn't have a recall. Period. My dogs have a drag line on them and I have a ball in my hand until they are well over a year old. You don't correct them. Ever. Recall should be fast and happy. If you correct them then they won't come back to you. Then what do you do as they are racing towards the road trying to get away from because they get corrected for not coming back?

Stick? What kind of stick?

So put him on a flexi or a long line. Throw a piece of food to get him to go away from you and then call him back. When he comes back, feed him. A lot. Wash, rinse and repeat.

if you are recalling him outside then you better have an incentive ready. In this case, I have a ball. I might have two balls. if you come back to me, you get the ball. If they hesitate to come back, start backing up and running the other way so they chase you and then give them the ball.

if you build the value on YOU by rewarding when they come to you then your recalls will come. And also anytime you have to call them off of chasing something should follow because there is value to returning to you.

NOW - once you have a reliable recall, you can proof it with electric. But you are a very long way from that.
 
1 - 20 of 39 Posts
Top