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Discussion Starter #1
Dear all,

This is about Rex, my 9 month old boy.

Here is the sequence of events:

1. Switched him to Ziwi Peak food. From quality kibble from old owner to Ziwi Peak (Lamb & Mackerel). Did it over 5 days which I later learned was aggressive. During the transition, stools became a bit looser, however much less.

2. He was not pooping till next day or many hours after eating and little compared to what was being eaten. I thought that was the result of better absorption. Then, day 5 of the move of diet, I fed him at 8 pm, took him out, made a small poop. Slept at 11 pm. Walk up to a huge mess, maybe one week worth of poop all diarrhea.

3. Energy levels at this point were good. Next day level of energy went down. Soft stools. Went to Vet. Stool test and vet said positive for Giardia. Vet gave Flagyl (metro) two pills so 800 gram total per day a day for 7 days. Also Priobiotic called Promax that comes in Big Syringe, daily for three days. We have been doing this for two days. Appetite sucks and very hard to give pill. So I am using Ziwi wet food to have him swallow pills. Working. Still diarrhea.

4. After reading on the forum:

I bought Panacur C , three 4 gram packet and I bought Kocci free.

The above will arrive in about 3-4 days, so I would be on the last day of Metro.

Advise please on:

1. Do I start immediately the Panacur C when I get it? Dosage? (my pup is 66 pounds). For how long? I am worried that it will be too much with the Metro?

2. What about the Kocci Free? Do I start it immediately?


3. Do I buy further Probiotic?

4. Anyway, I can firm up the stool so I deal with this easier WITHOUT causing constipation?

5. Any further advice most appreciated.

Many thanks
 

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I would let the vet know you are considering using Panicur on top of Metro. I know that is something that is commonly done, but I would let them know to see what they have to say.


The vet should have asked for you to schedule a recheck in x amount of days (I think 14-21 days after the initial dosage). Giardia can be tough to kick. Katsu went through 2 full cycles with Panicur for a month total to clear out her system.


If he is 66lbs, you'd want to give him 1 4 gram packet, 1 2 gram packet, and 1 1 gram packet for a total of 7 grams (70lbs) once a day for 3 consecutive days. The instructions on the back say to round up per weight since there are no half grams. It may be cheaper to buy a liquid suspension through your vet (I'd call and ask about that).


Firming stool, canned pumpkin can help. Just make sure the only ingredient in the can is pumpkin.


I know nothing about Kocci Free.
 

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Hello Mozi,

My dog got two bouts of giardia last year. Flagyl did not work for him, My vet gave both metro and panacur at the same time. Panacur for 3 days and then repeat after 2 weeks for 3 days. The first time i did this giardia came back, so for the second round i did 7 days panacur, repeat for 7 days after 2 weeks.

During this time, the whole house and anything he touched/sat on was washed with mild bleach solution. Crates, etc cleaned with clorox wipes. I used seventh generation disinfecting wipes on all other furniture. For pills, greenies pill pockets worked the best. For first dosage of panacur, i had to force-feed a little ball of rice, yogurt and panacur. Within 24 hrs, he was eating so i just mixed it into his food. I also gave pedalyte unflavored for strength. Added Dr. peter dobias gutsense, wholistic organics wholebiotics and digest all, Firm Up! Pumpkin. I also added Kochi free. For about a year i did kochi on and off -30 days on, 30days off at half dosage to prevent a recurrence. For the first couple of days, you can add the pedalyte and any freeze dried food and make it a mush to make him eat. Momentum freeze dried treats work well. Their duck breast was the only thing he ate along with vital essentials beef tripe treats in the first week. Good luck!
Phebe.
 

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forgot one more thing....added kala health optimsm...it comes in capsules form too....2/day. you can get all these on amazon for quick delivery
 

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I would hold the Kocci Free and only give it after finishing metro and Panacur if they both fail -- not at the same time. It's natural but natural is not the same as side-effect free. It's pretty potent. I would not give it at the same time as Metro/Flagyl or Panacur/fenbendazole.

Panacur is used pretty commonly in combination with Metro. I think you should let your vet know over the phone though in case there's some issue with that other product they're using.

Please confirm the Panacur dose from your vet over the phone. They should be willing to tell you -- it's also posted on the manufacturer's materials, but it technically requires converting pounds to kg and calculating using mg per kg to get right (at least that's how we do it with the liquid version of Panacur that I use -- it might be listed on the packaging for the packets, as they're pre-measured). That's not a hard calculation to do with the liquid, but I think your vet should be part of the conversation. The liquid is WAY cheaper than the packets, but it requires squirting into the dog's mouth with a needle-less syringe and tastes bad (the packets are flavored granules that go down easier).

If it were my dog, would give it once daily for AT LEAST 5 days for giardia (not 3!) -- I'd even consider talking to the vet about going out to 7 days if it's especially stubborn. Three days is enough for intestinal worms, but giardia often requires a longer course.



Here's some reading from a vet source:
https://www.vin.com/apputil/content...34572&id=5124224&ind=185&objTypeID=17&print=1
 

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forgot one more thing....added kala health optimsm...it comes in capsules form too....2/day. you can get all these on amazon for quick delivery
Yes! The MSM makes the gut and "unfriendly" place for parasites/protoza!

Others have given their dog the Kocci Free (an herbal) at a different time of the day, from the abx. Your choice.

There is also a homeopathic. You can pm me if you'd like this info.

I'd also switch to Ziwi Peak BEEF instead of the Lamb. In TCM, Lamb is a "hot" food so it sometimes disagrees with a dogs gut if there is a flair up going on. Poops will be much smaller on Ziwi.

With whichever protein you choose, don't forget to use treats with a protein that matches. ie: Ziwi Beef = Ziwi Beef treats or small cut up pieces of steak (see recipe below). For now, I'd limit the ingredients that he is eating.

Moms :)


EASY HOMEMADE MEAT TREATS

Items needed:
Non Stick Fry Pan
Large Round Steak or Pork Chops or Lamb or Goat or Calves Liver or any whole meats your dog can eat.
Scissors
1. Trim off all fat on the edges and in-between and if it has bone, remove that too. If using Calves Liver, thaw, and blot well with paper towel to remove excess blood.
2. Take a pair of scissors (outstanding tool for cutting meat, raw or cooked) and cut the meat into manageable pieces.
3. Choose a fry pan (non stick works the easiest) that will hold the amount of meat you bought, and give the pan a small drop of oil or a quick spray of Pam.
4. Heat the pan until really hot and drop in the meat pieces in to sizzle. Keep your heat high but don’t leave the pan unattended.
5. Sprinkle on a little garlic powder or garlic salt if desired.
6. Let it sizzle for about a minute or two then flip over. Braise the other side (pour off the juice if there is too much) and remove from pan when the middle is pink (especially the Liver or it will crumble). Place on to paper towel, blot and let cool.
7. Take your scissors and cut all of the meat in strips about ¼” wide. Now take those strips and cut small pieces about the size of a ½ of a dime, (or whatever size you prefer).
8. Place small amounts into sealable snack baggies, then place those baggies into a sealable freezer baggie and place in freezer. When you need them, take out one or two baggies, place them in the frig and they will un-thaw. Of course the dogs love them frozen too, if you forget! They will unthaw quickly on the cupboard or in your pocket for training.
The process takes a little time but saves a lot of $$ and the dogs go crazy for them!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Hello guys, thanks for the feedback and the suggestions.

I called the vet and told him about Panacur. He said it is a good idea but that the ones they have here are very small doses. So I told him I ordered for large dogs and he said it works and that is a good idea.

I am having another problem. i watched videos and all but I am not able to give him the metro pill without drama. Today he was not eating at all. No peanut butter, no wet food. Yesterday I put the pills in some wet food. Today he did not want any food, so I kind of had to force feed him the two pills within a small ball of wet food. I had to have the dose so we continue treatment..... He yelped and cried :( and went away from me. I felt like I traumatized a him somewhat and I have 4 more days to go! How do I do this without him hating me forever :(? I called the vet who said bring him over but he had a bad experience with the pills at the vet as well. He will be traumatized there.

Let s say I have to make the pills an unpleasant experience, will that taint the relationship or will late fun and time make it better.

I feel sad as I want to help him but I am some what being a source of his agony. Vet said to bring him tomorrow. He said he could do an injection that will last two weeks but it is not like the Metro. He also said we can try the flavoured Panacur. I looked and it is for horses.

I feel sad and I dont know what is right or wrong to do....

Also I am confused about the bleach cleaning. Every time he sits somewhere I have to clean it with bleached water? How does that work. He was just in his crate. I wash it and then it is all wet. And then what? I dry it with a towel and if he sits on it again, I do the same thing? Every time he has his ball in his mouth I have to fully clean it with bleached water and then if he plays with it again I have to wash it? What about the couch?

He just licked his bum....did he re-infect himself? I had clean it with a wet wipe.....how does this all work....

pls guide...
 

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My Golden Retriever has a congenital heart defect and he has to take pills every single day. Since we found out about his disease (aprox 1 year ago) I give him the pills with some yogurt!

Peanut butter and chicken (that he very much loves) didnt work out for me! But yogurt did. Maybe you could try with your dog? My advice would be, dont put the pills in the yogurt cup and give it directly to him. Grab a spoonful of yogurt, put the pills in there, open his mouth, give him the yogurt, close his mouth with your hand and wait to see if he took it! Sometimes it works if you right away offer him another spoonful of yogurt, because if he would like to eat more he would have to swallow whats already in his mouth (with the pills). Just be careful and make sure your dog doesnt have any yogurt related allergies if you try to do so! And dont be sad, your dog wont hate you because of it! Mine certainly doesnt hate me :) :)

Regardind the giardia once a vet told me its everywhere. Its better to try and minimize the symptoms than try to fully eradicate it. Your dog will be fine! You are a great owner!!

Im sorry if theres grammar mistakes, english is not my 1st language. Good luck and keep us updated! :)
 

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One thing all pet owners need to learn is how to pill a dog or cat:
Fast forward to 44 seconds.

Don't worry about traumatizing your dog! This HAS to be done. Don't make a big fuss over it, just do it and get the pill in there.
 

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This thread is good timing. I am currently treating two of my dogs for Giardia after the fecals came back positive. Vet gave both Panacur for 5 days and one dog is also taking Metronidazole for a week. Additionally I am giving them each MSM powder and Diatomaceous Earth with dinner each night (vet approves). I am ordering additional Panacur from amazon to do a second round about a week after the first as Giardia often persists and needs two treatments. I want to nip this as quickly as possible. Studies on MSM and DE for treatment are also very positive. Im pretty confident in getting rid of this with what Im doing. Luckily my boys scarf down food even with meds in in. I bought fortiflora probiotic to give my dog that is on the antibiotic to replenish the good bacteria. Make sure you give the probiotic separate from the meds by a few hours. Otherwise Id just shove a pill down their throat, tough luck for them, theyll get over it. I have cleaned the house and disinfected just to be sure.
 

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One thing all pet owners need to learn is how to pill a dog or cat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3yHgItqGmo
Fast forward to 44 seconds.

Don't worry about traumatizing your dog! This HAS to be done. Don't make a big fuss over it, just do it and get the pill in there.

This is such good advice. When we went through eye cancer, surgery, and recovery last summer for my dog, he was on eight meds at one point. Coaxing him to eat all that was no-go. But a 30 second pill-pop down the hatch by placing it quickly in the back of his throat, followed by a yummy treat as a reward, made it all pretty easy. You just have to be matter of fact and do it without feeling bad about it, and convince the dog it's no big deal. The younger the dog learns that this is okay, the easier it is for you (and for vet staff who may have to handle them).
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I watched all these videos but he just would not stand still and then I kind of had to hold him firmly while he squirmed and I did it. But it was 3 seconds of forcefulness which I hated and I am sure he did.

He was trying to shake me off. He would not get near me for like 15 minutes after. I acted normal and now he seems cool. Watching a movie with me and being playful. I guess I have to toughen my skin.

But you read about all these dogs becoming traumatised from one experience of this or that and it makes me paranoid. It is weird that we say they don’t know if they did do something wrong after the fact implying that their connective memory is short yet they remember that you gave them a pill and they hated it.

Oh well, I am going to take him to the vet tomorrow and see how he does it live. It will make it easier for me to try again the day after.
 

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Hello Mozi,

I did the cleaning after the first dosage of panacur and also bathed(4legger organic shampoo) him the same time. Then i kept to a weekly schedule, but his crates/bed/sheets were twice a week. The second time he got it....i went and replaced all the bedding after the treatment. During the treatment i used cut up old sheets/quilts for his usage. You can buy panacur via amazon, they have the dosage in the details and you can calculate using your dog's current weight.

Carpets were cleaned using steam cleaner and hardwood were steam mopped bi-weekly. I still maintain this.

Hope this helps,
Phebe.
 

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Just hold him as firm as needed and shove down his throat if he refuses to eat it after trying all options. Dont baby him or feel bad, it just has to be done and he will be fine. You are overthinking it.
 

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Regarding giving Kochi Free when also giving Antibiotics:


I emailed Amber Technology:

MY QUESTION:
Can you give Kochi Free at a different time of the day from an antibiotic?

AT's ANSWER:

Yes. There is no set time.
Depending on why you are giving it (the Kochi Free), will determine if you are giving it 2 or 4 times per day. It should be done at least 4 hours apart and no more than four dosages in a 24 hour period. It helps support the body getting rid of bacterial, viral, fungus and yeast. If your pup has Giardia, it is recommended to add MSM to the diet. And is VERY important to clean the area after the pup goes potty with HOT water. Sure, bleach, ammonia or whatever may be used but it is the HOT water that kills it.

Please contact us again with any questions or concerns. Please feel free to join out group on facebook, "The Pet Hotline".

Sincerely,
Terri
AT Customer Service <[email protected]>


Hope this helps!

Moms :)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Update!

Thank you for the feedback and support :) Didnt expect I ll face that challenges in the beginning of the journey like that. So I am a bit overwhelmed.

Never had kids or a wife (only an ex-wife briefly) to take care of so this is new, challenging and somewhat full filling :)

This morning it went great! I have been discovering that he likes COLD food. I had put the wet Ziwi food in the fridge over night.

So we went out in the morning for the walk, spurts of running and fun. Came back, played ball with him and hung out. I then went to fridge as of nothing and made 6 balls of wet food in my hands. Baited two. I made it exciting that he was getting treats (he had not ate for 24 hours and I am glad he was hungry). Gave him two of them which he gobbled, then bait, one normal, then bait, the one normal and played after. It was done in 10 seconds :)

So fun, exciting, hungry and cold wet food were the way to go! I am gonna keep with that....The Pancur and Kocci should arrive in the next 4 days. I will hit with Panacur consulting with Vet, twice. And do Kicci sparingly as suggested in the thread.

Question on Probiotics.....We had a syringe thing that is done now in three doses. Can I buy more and just give as we go along? Says here that I can... Probiotics for Dogs FAQ

Finally, MSM is at pet store? Pet MSM or human MSM? I think I saw combos of MSM, Gluco samine etc for joint support at per shop. Those?

I hope this thread helps others!

Cheers
 

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I'd buy the MSM at a human health food store or Whole Foods -- even a Vitamin Shoppe would have it, if you have one of those around your local mall. You'll likely get better quality control in a human formula than you are likely to get in pet supplements. I think I found the Doctor's Best brand at WF (it contains OptiMSM, a propietary/trademarked formulation -- several other brands have it too). In fact, here's a list of brands that contain OptiMSM (which is very pure, with decent quality control, and better researched than alternatives):
https://www.optimsm.com/brands/
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Ok, so appetite is back so I guess he got used to the Metro. He is on Syn Biotic too, daily pill. Panacur C will arrive soon as I ordered it and we will start that in coordination with the vet. My plan is to repeat Panacur C after 10 days.

I am still having issues with Diahrrea. I got soft stools yesterday morning that formed well and I thought we are progressing only to have Diahhrea at night. Will the Diahrrea stay as long as the Giardia is present? I am planning to get canned pumpkin to hopefully firm things up.

Thanks!
 

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The diarrhea will stay as long as on antibiotic...ride it out and consider vet scripted kibble for belly issues to help firm up.
I never would have given that advice in past but rescued a very sick dog...once I signed adoption papers and paid, next morning the fun began (sigh)


Severe intestinal bacterial infection - Metro
2 types of whip worm - panacur
Tapeworm - forget name
Anaplasmosis positive - 3 weeks doxycycline
Heartworm positive and microfilaria positive - heartguard
Pre- heartworm treatment - started 1 week after ending anaplasmosis treatment...1 full month of doxy (again) at double dose


This dog was on meds for approx. 3 months...I did separate dosing starts for 1 week


While she underwent all this, I fed her Hills rx food. But fed her 3 meals
I ordered Feed-sentials and Sunday Sundae from @carmspack and made home-made bone stock - All this to assist her immune system and strengthen her from the assault of disease, the meds and die-off from meds (all takes it's toll on the body)
AM. Pill - food/bone stock
PM. Pill - food/feedsentials/1/4 can of canned beef tripe
Before bed (about 5 hrs after PM meal) small feed w/Sunday Sundae mixed with "Goats" milk yogurt


Once we cured the bacterial/parasite issue (in 1 week) - She sailed through all other antibiotic treatments (did have a bit struggle with tapeworm treatment)s
I eventually added in freeze dried raw bits as a topper/bonus to her food here and there and added in Acana, rotating in diff proteins but stayed at 50% RX kibble during this time too.


You have to keep in mind that takes about 30 days for the GI tract to heal.
But I swear she wouldn't have done this well if wasn't for Carmens products and bone stock
 
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