German Shepherds Forum banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
We are having an issue with Xena which has just started in the past week. She will suddenly, without warning become afraid of me (only one time with my when I was away). I am the trainer and disciplinarian with her, my wife can only seem to give her affection. She yelped like I hurt her, just reaching out to touch her, before I even got that far. Her ears are pinned back, eyes looks strange, head lowered and tail between her legs, she wants to get away from me. If I force it, she will respond to a recall or down, but seems deathly afraid and pees. When this happens, she doesn’t even want to play with a ball or tug, which is her absolute favorite thing to do. These “episodes" have happened 6 times in the last week almost always in evening near bedtime.

There is nothing in her daily routine which has changed. Nothing in her diet that has changed, she still has a healthy appitite. We do have a vet appointment this week but nothing seems to be wrong with her physically. For background, she is 20 mo old, came to us as a rescue, we have had her for a year.

I wrote here a few weeks back about her getting caught up in a fence. It was a very traumatic event, but she seemed fine afterward and she isn’t afraid of the area where it happened. It took both my wife and I to get her out, we both got bit. Could this be the cause, it started a week later?

Wondering if anyone has a clue, or what you think we should be doing to address? Needless to say, this is very upsetting to us. She always stuck to me like glue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,696 Posts
What do you mean by this statement: "I am the disciplinarian"? Can you explain how exactly have you been "disciplining" her? And what methods have you used in your training?

When I foster dogs like this who are afraid of humans, we do a two-week shutdown, and we reset by starting from scratch with a new training method they've likely never experienced and have no bad associations with -- clicker training. It's a fantastic tool to communicate in a non-scary way and build trust. I try to use new words for commands that they likely have no associations with, as I want a blank slate so that I can build positive, fear-free connections.

I also think it's incredibly important not to force yourself on a fearful dog. Trust is earned. Forcing her to submit (and pee herself) just reinforces that she's right to be scared. That's exactly the wrong thing to be doing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
By discipline, I mean like putting her in a place or down if she is bugging us while trying to eat, didn't mean to imply punishment. If we have company, its me who holds her on a leash when needed. I'm the one training her to heel on a walk. Your last statement "I also think it's incredibly important not to force yourself on a fearful dog" is exactly what I was wondering?

My wife wants to coddle her. Is that good, or should we just let her be?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,335 Posts
I would not coddle the dog. That is just rewarding the bad and fearful behavior.

Like Magwart said, don't force yourself on her, but don't baby her either. I would keep things business like usual, but I would maybe try a different training method with her. How have you been training so far?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
This behavior is really an "episode" it happens for no apparent reason. Right now she is bringing me her toys to play with and is completely normal as she has been almost a year now.

Interestingly enough, in a few hours we are going to meet a trainer, who is highly recommended by a few on this list, who does IPO training among other things. Appointment was made a while back. I wanted to at least explore the training for BH, I don't think she is capable of IPO beyond that, but wanted to look into that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,839 Posts
Great that you are having a trainer in.If it is episodic behavior, can you always have a cell nearby so you can have someone video when it happens? That would be super useful to share with your trainer in case you have a perfect session and he does not get to observe it first hand. Good luck!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Was also going to ask if its possibly a reaction to vaccinations she recently received? A few weeks back she got rabies, DAP and flu?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,729 Posts
Was also going to ask if its possibly a reaction to vaccinations she recently received? A few weeks back she got rabies, DAP and flu?
YES....this is definitely possible! It happened to 2 of our dogs!

Shame, SHAME on your vet for giving this poor girl all of those vaccinations at once!

I'm not criticizing you here, I'm criticizing your vet!
I'm sure that vet told you it was just fine to give everything at once!


*DAP = 3 viruses included in this one! canine distemper (CD) canine adenovirus type 1 (CAV-1), canine adenovirus type 2

*FLU Shot

*So after he gave her 4 viruses/bacteria's......
.....he decided to give her a 5th????? RABIES!!!!:surprise:

It would be like you going into Walgreens and getting a flu shot, a pneumonia shot, a meningitis shot, a chicken pox shot, and a whooping cough shot ALL at one time!!!!!


Vaccinations should be separated and be about 3 weeks apart! ESPECIALLY the Rabies!



people need to research the particular "risks" in your area for certain diseases before throwing ALL of those at a dog/puppy. Then make an informed decision on which ones will be beneficial.


This homeopathic may help combat the effects of the vaccinations. It will not remove any of the benefits of the vaccinations:
https://market.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/products/anti-vaccinosis
There are 3 pages here talking about vaccinations and vaccine reactions: https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/?post_type=post&s=vaccinations


Here is some information and reading materials concerning vaccinations:


Dr. Jean Dodds - Vaccine Researcher

2016/17 Vaccination Protocol:
9 - 10 weeks of age

Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV
e.g. Merck Nobivac (Intervet Progard) Puppy DPV


14 – 15 weeks of age
Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV


18 weeks of age
Parvovirus only, MLV

Note: New research states that last puppy parvovirus vaccine should be at 18 weeks old.


20 weeks or older, if allowable by law
Rabies – give 3-4 weeks apart from other vaccines


1 year old
Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV
This is an optional booster or titer. If the client intends not to booster after this optional booster or intends to retest titers in another three years, this optional booster at puberty is wise.



1 year old
Rabies – give 3-4 weeks apart from other vaccines


Dogs should be tittered each year BEFORE a vaccination is given. If titer is sufficient for such as Parvo or Distemper, a vaccination should not be given. If your vet won't titer.....find a new vet!


Canine NON-Core Vaccines: Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | Search results for: core vaccines
"Dr. Dodds considers infectious canine hepatitis (adenovirus-1), canine adenovirus-2, bordetella, canine influenza, canine coronavirus, leptospirosis, and Lyme regional and situational. Please research the prevalence in your area, and discuss it with your veterinarian."

Vets On Vaccines: Vets On Vaccines - Dogs Naturally Magazine
Leptospirosis Vaccines adverse reaction, Dr. Jordan DVM

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/dog-allergies-a-man-made-problem/
Frequently Asked Questions about Titers and Vaccination Protocol by Dr. Dodds
Puppy and Kitten Vaccinations: Timing is critical
Rabies: The Science & the Current Law
Vaccines: When too much of a good thing turns bad
Vaccines: When too much of a good thing turns bad (Part 2)
Avoid Unnecessary Vaccines with Titer Tests (Part 3)

Response: Immune-Mediated Thrombocytopenia Report and Article
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: Is the puppy’s severe physical reaction due to a routine vaccine?
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: What should I do to protect my adult dogs during a parvovirus outbreak?
To Vaccinate or Not to Vaccinate for Infectious Canine Hepatitis?
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: I had a dog who had a bad reaction to the rabies vaccine and now I am concerned about giving it to my other dogs. What should I do?
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: Kennel Cough Complex Vaccines
Yes or No to Snake Vaccines?
Canine Influenza H3N8 Article - Dr. Dodds’ Additions
Clinical Approaches to Managing and Treating Adverse Vaccine Reactions
Dr. Schultz on Lyme Vaccine
Dr. Schultz Update on Leptospirosis Vaccines (2012)
More on Vaccine Titer Testing
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: Newborns and immunity from mothers
Mercury-Induced Inflammation: Yet Another Example of ASIA Syndrome
Canine Non-Core Vaccines
Snapshot of Leptospirosis Strains and Vaccines
Puppy Vaccination Schedule and Socialization: Can they go together?
Kennel Cough Complex: A complicated phrase for the canine common cold
A Pilot Study: Dose Vaccines for Small Dogs
More on Vaccinations & Small Dog Vaccine Study
Canine Influenza H3N2 Outbreak
Immune Disorders and Vaccines
Know Your Bordetella Vaccine


Cancer in our pet population, why is it on the rise?
Vaccinations and How They Disrupt the Immune System
5th Annual Joint American Homeopathic Conference - Poster Session 2010
Leptospirosis Vaccines Adverse Reaction
How vaccines dysregulate the immune system and impact genetic control over disease expression

The Purdue Vaccination Studies and Auto-antibodies by Catherine O’Driscoll on April 26, 2011 The Purdue Vaccination Studies and Auto-antibodies - Dogs Naturally Magazine
Taking The Risk Out Of Puppy Shots by Dogs Naturally on July 12, 2011 Taking The Risk Out Of Puppy Shots - Dogs Naturally Magazine
Protecting Your Puppy From Disease: Protecting Your Puppy From Disease - Dogs Naturally Magazine

There is also a 4 part video series on vaccinations by Dr. Ron Schultz and Dr. Karen Becker at www.mercolahealtypets.com

Dr. Ron Schultz's (Vaccine Research) study results:
Minimum Duration of Immunity for Canine Vaccines:
Distemper- 7 years by challenge/15 years by serology
Parvovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology
Adenovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 9 years by serology
Canine rabies – 3 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology
Dr. Schultz concludes: “Vaccines for diseases like distemper and canine parvovirus, once administered to adult animals, provide lifetime immunity.” “Are we vaccinating too much?” JAVMA, No. 4, August 15, 1995, pg. 421.
Lifelong Immunity - Why Vets Are Pushing Back - Dogs Naturally Magazine


For Dr. Dodds’ position on various canine vaccines, please refer to the following posts:
Frequently Asked Questions about Titers and Vaccination Protocol
Dr. Ron Schultz on Lyme Vaccine
Dr. Ron Schultz on Leptospirosis Vaccines
Kennel Cough Complex Vaccines
Infectious Canine Hepatitis
Canine Influenza (H3N8)
Vaccinations: A Global Perspective




Moms :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,335 Posts
YES....this is definitely possible! It happened to 2 of our dogs!

Shame, SHAME on your vet for giving this poor girl all of those vaccinations at once!

I'm not criticizing you here, I'm criticizing your vet!
I'm sure that vet told you it was just fine to give everything at once!


*DAP = 3 viruses included in this one! canine distemper (CD) canine adenovirus type 1 (CAV-1), canine adenovirus type 2

*FLU Shot

*So after he gave her 4 viruses/bacteria's......
.....he decided to give her a 5th????? RABIES!!!!:surprise:

It would be like you going into Walgreens and getting a flu shot, a pneumonia shot, a meningitis shot, a chicken pox shot, and a whooping cough shot ALL at one time!!!!!


Vaccinations should be separated and be about 3 weeks apart! ESPECIALLY the Rabies!



people need to research the particular "risks" in your area for certain diseases before throwing ALL of those at a dog/puppy. Then make an informed decision on which ones will be beneficial.


This homeopathic may help combat the effects of the vaccinations. It will not remove any of the benefits of the vaccinations:
https://market.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/products/anti-vaccinosis
There are 3 pages here talking about vaccinations and vaccine reactions: https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/?post_type=post&s=vaccinations


Here is some information and reading materials concerning vaccinations:


Dr. Jean Dodds - Vaccine Researcher

2016/17 Vaccination Protocol:
9 - 10 weeks of age

Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV
e.g. Merck Nobivac (Intervet Progard) Puppy DPV


14 – 15 weeks of age
Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV


18 weeks of age
Parvovirus only, MLV

Note: New research states that last puppy parvovirus vaccine should be at 18 weeks old.


20 weeks or older, if allowable by law
Rabies – give 3-4 weeks apart from other vaccines


1 year old
Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV
This is an optional booster or titer. If the client intends not to booster after this optional booster or intends to retest titers in another three years, this optional booster at puberty is wise.



1 year old
Rabies – give 3-4 weeks apart from other vaccines


Dogs should be tittered each year BEFORE a vaccination is given. If titer is sufficient for such as Parvo or Distemper, a vaccination should not be given. If your vet won't titer.....find a new vet!


Canine NON-Core Vaccines: Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | Search results for: core vaccines
"Dr. Dodds considers infectious canine hepatitis (adenovirus-1), canine adenovirus-2, bordetella, canine influenza, canine coronavirus, leptospirosis, and Lyme regional and situational. Please research the prevalence in your area, and discuss it with your veterinarian."

Vets On Vaccines: Vets On Vaccines - Dogs Naturally Magazine
Leptospirosis Vaccines adverse reaction, Dr. Jordan DVM

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/dog-allergies-a-man-made-problem/
Frequently Asked Questions about Titers and Vaccination Protocol by Dr. Dodds
Puppy and Kitten Vaccinations: Timing is critical
Rabies: The Science & the Current Law
Vaccines: When too much of a good thing turns bad
Vaccines: When too much of a good thing turns bad (Part 2)
Avoid Unnecessary Vaccines with Titer Tests (Part 3)

Response: Immune-Mediated Thrombocytopenia Report and Article
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: Is the puppy’s severe physical reaction due to a routine vaccine?
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: What should I do to protect my adult dogs during a parvovirus outbreak?
To Vaccinate or Not to Vaccinate for Infectious Canine Hepatitis?
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: I had a dog who had a bad reaction to the rabies vaccine and now I am concerned about giving it to my other dogs. What should I do?
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: Kennel Cough Complex Vaccines
Yes or No to Snake Vaccines?
Canine Influenza H3N8 Article - Dr. Dodds’ Additions
Clinical Approaches to Managing and Treating Adverse Vaccine Reactions
Dr. Schultz on Lyme Vaccine
Dr. Schultz Update on Leptospirosis Vaccines (2012)
More on Vaccine Titer Testing
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: Newborns and immunity from mothers
Mercury-Induced Inflammation: Yet Another Example of ASIA Syndrome
Canine Non-Core Vaccines
Snapshot of Leptospirosis Strains and Vaccines
Puppy Vaccination Schedule and Socialization: Can they go together?
Kennel Cough Complex: A complicated phrase for the canine common cold
A Pilot Study: Dose Vaccines for Small Dogs
More on Vaccinations & Small Dog Vaccine Study
Canine Influenza H3N2 Outbreak
Immune Disorders and Vaccines
Know Your Bordetella Vaccine


Cancer in our pet population, why is it on the rise?
Vaccinations and How They Disrupt the Immune System
5th Annual Joint American Homeopathic Conference - Poster Session 2010
Leptospirosis Vaccines Adverse Reaction
How vaccines dysregulate the immune system and impact genetic control over disease expression

The Purdue Vaccination Studies and Auto-antibodies by Catherine O’Driscoll on April 26, 2011 The Purdue Vaccination Studies and Auto-antibodies - Dogs Naturally Magazine
Taking The Risk Out Of Puppy Shots by Dogs Naturally on July 12, 2011 Taking The Risk Out Of Puppy Shots - Dogs Naturally Magazine
Protecting Your Puppy From Disease: Protecting Your Puppy From Disease - Dogs Naturally Magazine

There is also a 4 part video series on vaccinations by Dr. Ron Schultz and Dr. Karen Becker at www.mercolahealtypets.com

Dr. Ron Schultz's (Vaccine Research) study results:
Minimum Duration of Immunity for Canine Vaccines:
Distemper- 7 years by challenge/15 years by serology
Parvovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology
Adenovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 9 years by serology
Canine rabies – 3 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology
Dr. Schultz concludes: “Vaccines for diseases like distemper and canine parvovirus, once administered to adult animals, provide lifetime immunity.” “Are we vaccinating too much?” JAVMA, No. 4, August 15, 1995, pg. 421.
Lifelong Immunity - Why Vets Are Pushing Back - Dogs Naturally Magazine


For Dr. Dodds’ position on various canine vaccines, please refer to the following posts:
Frequently Asked Questions about Titers and Vaccination Protocol
Dr. Ron Schultz on Lyme Vaccine
Dr. Ron Schultz on Leptospirosis Vaccines
Kennel Cough Complex Vaccines
Infectious Canine Hepatitis
Canine Influenza (H3N8)
Vaccinations: A Global Perspective




Moms :)
Moms,

You always have very useful information. Thank you for taking the time to help everyone with their questions. We really appreciate it. :)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,729 Posts
Moms,

You always have very useful information. Thank you for taking the time to help everyone with their questions. We really appreciate it. :)
You are so very welcome!

All for the health of our puppy's & dog's and in hopes of people passing on this VERY important information concerning this issue!

Moms :)
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,359 Posts
Another thing that may help is to call her to you - instead of approaching yourself.Maybe even take a small step back as she nears you.It will feel totally different to her and might get her over the intimidation/submissive feeling.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Thank you everyone for the advice, the vaccination info was especially informative! She has been OK now for a few days...?

We took her to a trainer yesterday to evaluate for IPO. I at least was thinking about going for BH with her. She surprised me how well she did. We are going to start work on this, seems like fun for both of us.

A few of you asked about how we have been training. She came from a rescue and after working with a trainer for 3 Mo. (She was a 100% positive reinforcement trainer) although she learned a lot of obedience commands quickly, we were making no progress with her reactivness. We were just about to return her to the rescue when we came across a local trainer, who took her for a board and train. This rehab program is from the work by Sean O’Shea, The Good Dog Way. Since her return in Dec, we have only focused on place ( on her mat), down, heel and recall. Her progress has been amazing. We can now take her everywhere, she no longer reacts to people, cars or especially other dogs.

The puzzling part of this new behavior is why now, after a year. That’s why I’m wondering if caused by a traumatic event, vaccinations, etc.

Thanks all, this forum is a wealth of information,

Dale
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
One additional thing, as if this wasn’t enough....We live in an area of rattle snakes. In the past week, we had a lot of tall grass and brush cleared away, in preparation for fire season. The workers found 9 baby rattle snakes!! She is scheduled to go in for a rattle snake avoidance class, but with this behavioral issue, it may not be the best time. I understand they get a sizable jolt from an ecollar, I’m not sure she needs any more trauma right now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,696 Posts
I struggled with whether to do that training when I loved out West. I did not do it. I think you need to do A LOT of research about it.

Rattlesnake avoidance training can be brutal on sensitive dogs -- please watch videos of it online first and do some research before deciding. It's not a "little" electric shock like a mild correction -- some of those guys blast the living crap out of the dog, to the point it screams and jumps off the ground, creating long-term trauma. Many of them are not "dog trainers" with a long-term investment in the stability of your dog -- they're snake wranglers who do this as a side gig.

That training is VERY controversial. I've read about some very troubling results -- some dogs learn to HATE...and attack...snakes instead of learning to avoid them, because they associate them with pain and have the drive to fight them off; others end up with long-term environmental fear issues and get triggered by any sounds resembling a rattle, shivering and peeing over common household sounds.

https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/18_5/features/Snake-Aversion-Without-Shock_21208-1.html

https://nancytanner.com/2014/05/13/snake-avoidance-training-the-good-bad-and-
wrong-of-it-all/

Even if you find a good trainer, who can get your dog safely through the training and help her recover, I don't think I'd be doing that on a dog with this issue yet. Build up her confidence and trust. You need a reservoir of inner strength for the dog to draw on.

If you're some distance from an emergency vet with antivenin, talk with your vet about the rattlesnake vaccine. It's got pros and cons that require a vet to help you sort out. It's a very weird vaccine -- mostly it just buys some extra time in the race to get the antivenin into the dog, but buying time can save a dog in some circumstances. The antivenin is sometimes not easy to find (because it's SO expensive, few clinics stock it)--it's very important to know which clinics regularly keep it on hand, so that you aren't at the wrong one wasting time in an emergency.

Rattlesnake Vaccine for Dogs
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,234 Posts
From what you've posted I would be hesitant to use an ecollar on this dog. I'm sure there are skilled trainers who can use them effectively even with sensitive/soft dogs, but they're rare.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Just saw our vet, he agrees with you about the rattle snake avoidance class, don't think I will ever do that. Luckily, we are 2 blocks away from a 24 hr. emergency veterinarian. He did suggest a vaccination perhaps at some point, but given this current behavioral issue, suggested we hold off.
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top