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Just a general question to throw out there I guess. What do you know mixes well with lines that draw strengths from stubborn, hard (ala Korbelbach) in order to preserve those strengths, but at the same time add biddability and so on? Is this even possible?
 

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I was just talking to someone about biddability. And talking about my DDR female who always had her own agenda. I have her daughter and a paternal half brother by Xito Maneiche. These two are drivy - can take a correction without losing drive, the female is more in tune and really really wants to please me so is real controllable by voice. It is truly amazing considering the big doggy fingers her mom was prone to that she is so biddable, the biddability I did a litter with Enno Fuchsstein, who was a Neck Maineiche grandson, thus a Xento great grandson - so far those pups are reportedly very biddable - but their mother is much more biddable than Csabres mother. So the Xento Maineiche line and I think that Ilja Schwartzen Zwinger/V litter Fasanerie may contribute well to this also.

I also love my Ufo v Guy's Hof female and what she produces for biddability.

Lee
 

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YES, it is possible. http://www.zutreuenhanden.com/Vala.htm One such combination that worked very well. And her littermates:
http://www.zutreuenhanden.com/Blitter.htm Both sire and dam were VERY hard dogs. Dam I would consider stubborn if you want to use that term. She definitely will give you the middle toe at times. Though I was told some of this is coming from Iko and Jenni Lindenhalle. But she was also willing if you found the right way to ask. I like the Körbelbachs for their hardness.

Fero, Greif, U litter Kirschental bring in biddability. So can some of the old herding lines if you can find them.
 

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I'm not quite sure why people want to see stubborn GSDs.
To me hardness does not equate to stubborness. You can get hard GSDs that are not stubborn, and hard GSDs that are stubborn, so why settle for the latter?
I see these as 2 unrelated traits.
Or I'm not quite so sure what people mean by a hard dog. What is the definition?
 

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Semantics in this sport is very interesting and at the same time very frustrating.

Hard - in my realm of experience - ie as used by people I have trained and worked with - is the ability of the dog to take pressure in a correction or training without losing drive for the work. When people talk about highline dogs with drive, I have seen many highline dogs with drive...it is much harder to find the highline dog who is hard, can take pressure to be correct in the work, can take a correction - not just in protection, but in obedience and tracking as well. Hard is determination / drive overshadowing environment and circumstance.

I am sure others will have a different definition

Stubborn has nothing to do with hard IMO. My dog who is not biddable is not really stubborn, she was very smart - she did not see the importance of what I wanted LOL she just often had something more important or interesting to do - like explore groundhog dens in the middle of a Schh3 track!!! or survey the crowd from the top of the A frame or before picking up the dumbbell - or look for friends or foes in a crowd when sent for the dumbbell...her attitude was always upbeat, just "yea, give me a second,
I'm busy, I'll get to you"...sort of like the teen age store clerk flirting instead of taking care of business. I often had to resort to very very strong corrections to get my point accross - as in, you WILL stay in a down by a strong physical placement...she was very very challenging for a first dog to title. She had many other great qualities, super nerves, resilient, tenacious, absolute stellar nerves environmentally, great innate tracking and hunt drive, SG, KKL1, head to die for, good color and pigment - the good and desirable things far outweighed that lack of biddability as far as pursuing titles and breeding potential.

I specifically bred to a male I felt could add that strong sense of biddability and a dog who would work for me, and not only got what I wanted from the breeding but even more than I expected.

Lee
 

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Stubborn is a human term often used to describe dogs that don't fit into a handler's typical training methods. Many of these dogs just need handler's capable of thinking outside the box.

Lee is right that we have to look at the whole dog when breeding. The idea is to keep a balance, accentuating the good while improving on the faults. Some dogs are harder to train, but bring other exceptional traits to the breed.
 

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I agree that hardness and stubbornness do not go hand in hand. They are too different things, and once can certainly have a hard dog that is also very biddable.

To me, hardness is the dog's ability to meet and overcome negative stimuli. Be it a correction, getting a toe or tail stepped on, pressure from the handler, or pressure from the helper, a "hard" dog will work through discomfort and pressure, bouncing back quickly from a negative stimulus without losing drive or attitude. And ideally will be even more determined and work even harder afterwards.

But such a dog doesn't need to be a butthead in general. A GSD shouldn't be "stubborn", it should be happily willing to work and take direction from the handler. But no matter how willing a dog is genetically, if the handler isn't able to communicate clearly to the dog, and motivate and reward the dog properly and in a way the dog understands, the results aren't going to be what the handler wants.

Originally Posted By: lhczthStubborn is a human term often used to describe dogs that don't fit into a handler's typical training methods. Many of these dogs just need handler's capable of thinking outside the box.
I agree. I haven't met too many dogs I would actually classify as stubborn, and most I have met were breeds other than GSDs. I've met many dog's whose handlers were unable to properly motivate and communicate with their dog.

I used to consider my first SchH dog stubborn. And even moreso than his perceived stubbornness, the thing that bothered me the most about it was that he wasn't that way all the time. He was the most willing, attentive dog in the world... until we got on the protection field. Looking back now, it's quite obvious that the alarm bell should have gone off in my head that there was something amiss with the training or the handling, because dog's don't go through some bizarre personality change at training. But I was too ignorant and inexperienced a the time to see that, or to know how to approach things differently with.. and it was easier to blame the dog. Of course the truth is that he was the same willing dog on the protection field as he was everywhere else, and our constant butting of heads in protection was training mistakes and communication failures on my part.

I have trained and titled dogs that would be considered "hard" by anyone's definition, and others that were quite soft and handler sensitive... too much so for my taste. I much prefer a hard dog. But once I learned to look to myself and my techniques as the source of conflict, and not blame the dog for being stubborn if he doesn't want to do things my way, I've noticed very little difference between my hard dogs and soft dogs in terms of biddability. The thing that did impact my perception of the dog's biddability was how easily I was able to communicate with the dogs.

I'm working two young bitches right now, one who's as hard as they come and another who's pretty close. The 2 are half sisters, but they learn VERY differently. The first was one of those dog's I clicked with right off the bat. She's always seemed practically clairvoyant in her ability to easily understand what I want, and to willingly and happily comply. The other has been much more difficult to figure out and we've butted heads and had some conflict because of that. Several times I've to step back and figure out a different way of teaching her, and we've gone through some times of trial and error that frustrated us both. But once I hit on what works for her, she shows herself to be every bit as biddable as her half sister. She's not stubborn at all, though at times it may seem like it or be tempting for me to accuse her of such. She's very willing, I just have to adjust my approach so it makes sense to her.
 

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I had a dog that could have been called "stubborn", but more than that, I'd called her "selfish". But not because she was born selfish, it was entirely me who made her that way. It was the first time I was introduced to clicker training and I used and abused of treats. Everything went fine until she ended maturing. She is the smartest dog I've ever met, but at 4 years old she had her own agenda and wouldn't care what I asked if not with a big lure in front of her nose. Was it genetic? Maybe 2% of it, but it was me who made a lot of mistakes on her and the responsible of the other 98%.
 

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I didn't think to mention when I posted earlier, but it further illustrates that hardness and stubbornness are completely separate traits.

We do have one dog, Nara, who I would call legitimately stubborn. It's not training. It's her. She has always been obstinate, has never had any sort of work ethic or desire to please and has always had her own agenda. She's extremely intelligent, but also about the most untrainable GSD I've ever met. Frankly, our cats are more biddable than she is.

And she is also what I would consider a very soft dog. She can't take much in the way of a leash or verbal correction before she shuts down, can't take any pressure from handler (or from the helper when she was young and we tried her at SchH), and she bounces back from any sort of negative experience very, very slowly.

She's lucky that she's sweet, social, cuddly, and has a very clownish and fun loving personality making her a pretty delightful house pet. Because if not for all the amusement she provides it would be hard to put up with her!
 

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I had a female that went back on the Körbelbachs through her sire and Harro, Wicko Meran and some show on the bottom. She was HARD, but also VERY VERY biddable. She was also linebred on Racker Itztal who could bring trainability. This was a dog that wanted to please. So, another example of bringing willingness (coming from Harro) to hardness (Alf Stoffelblick).
 

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do you think an extremely domanant dog would fit into this catagory? or is that considered an intirely different trait? i guess domanance could be mistaken for stubborness.
we had a male belgium/east german gsd that was very dominant and i catagorized him as being stubborn before i figured it out.
debbie
 

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I've crossed Korbelbach lines with Asko Lutter, Marc Herkulesblick and Boy von Haus Klonne successfully. The current litter I have the dam is linebred 3-4 on Orlie Korbelbach, 4-5 Hexe Korbelbach and Blue Scipio. I bred her to a Asko Lutter son-this is a repeat breeding-I got extremely biddable, high drives while being clear, that excellent focus that is natural-dogs who want to work just to work...
I also bred my Gary Korbelbach daughter to the same Asko lutter son with similar results as well as a Boy son-both gave me that biddability I like.
 

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I consider dominance to be something entirely different. I own three dominant bitches (makes life so much fun
) yet only one is not as biddable as she could be.

I just took the bitch from my first example to the same Asko son that Trish used. I actually added more Körbelbach with the linebreeding on Arek Stoffelblick, but also some more biddable lines. I had originally planned on taking this female to another male that would have brought in several crosses to Mink and would have been a linebreeding on Iko Lindenhalle (very hard and strong dogs). This dog was a good balance of the Mink mixed with the very trainable lines. Unfortunately that wasn't meant to happen.
 

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I agree with Lisa - dominance is different....My most biddable female is also very very dominant - I cannot have her with other females, and she has even challenged my male who is dominant (same sire) and he will back away from her.

Lee
 

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Lisa, I had a female line bred on Racker - bought her as an in whelp older dog after trying to get her for 2 years...she was by Brix Kapfwald, out of an Arek Stoffelblick daughter. Her pups are extremely stable and biddable - I only wish I had not lost my male from her to a unscrupulous situation. I would love to breed to him with one of my next generation from Basha. (Bruce said he should be a good producer !)

Lee
 

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Quote:I'm not quite sure why people want to see stubborn GSDs.
To me hardness does not equate to stubborness. You can get hard GSDs that are not stubborn, and hard GSDs that are stubborn, so why settle for the latter?
I see these as 2 unrelated traits.
I agree, I don't really like stubborn dogs but as already said you have to look at the total dog and if they bring other good qualities I could overlook it....I consider stubborn dogs as ones who are just lacking the pack drive/biddability/genetic obedience whatever you want to call it.

Some people are talking about dominance but to do with other dogs ? A dog can be dominant with other dogs but biddable but is this dominant with their handlers, and biddable ?

I have a Dolf vh Ming grandaughter, through her damline- her sireline goes to Troll vd Bosen Nachbarshaft, Gary korbelbach, kuran tiekerhook, Gento and Anker Ursania. I guess I could class her as a bit stubborn. She works to please herself not me !! She has some ball drive, prey ok buy not enough to work with, her best drive would be food drive. ! So I can only bribe her with food and use compulsion ! lucky she has food drive but even so I find her hard to work with sometimes to motivate her....and I wonder with her lines since they are not really known for their biddability( from what I hear and after seeing alot of her relatives) and if these dogs don't have enough drive to work with you only have compulsion...which is not such a good thing.
I am only a novice handler so with a more exp handler I'm sure she could be better, but still perhaps I am comparing her too much to a dog who did have alot more biddability. This bitch can take a correction fine but she does not have good nerves for protection work.

I wonder with these *sport* lines, dogs that are bred for many generations to excel at Schutzhund, some of the need for pack drive, natural biddability is lost ? what are everyone's thoughts ?

If all they need to succeed in training obedience is crazy ball/prey drive and breeders are not selecting for dogs who can do obedience without having to dangle a ball in the dogs's face then overtime wouldn't the bloodlines/dogs with the ability to work from pack drive/genetic obedience be lost ? Isn't that what working breeders always say unless you select for a certain qualities you want to keep, you lose them over time.
I should say the dog I had before her did not have heaps of biddability like a border collie LOL, just normal.. he sometimes had his own agenda but was more easy to work with, more wanted to work with you.. this Dolf vh Ming grandaughter just has very little of that, she's a sweet dog otherwise and is doing good in obedience,agility.
 

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Quote:I wonder with these *sport* lines, dogs that are bred for many generations to excel at Schutzhund, some of the need for pack drive, natural biddability is lost ? what are everyone's thoughts ?
Disagree. SchH is obedience. Lots and lots of obedience. A dog that isn't biddable to a certain degree, a dog that doesn't want to work with his handler and is always fighting with his handler is not going to score well.

Many of the Haus Ming dogs go into KNPV and not just SchH. I have a daughter of Citty vom Haus Ming who is bred almost exactly like Dolf. Citty was then bred to a dog that was linebred on the T litter Körbeblach to produce my bitch. These are tough hard dogs that do have a bit of a mind of their own. Not always the best "sport" dogs, but when crossed the right way they can produce some exceptional dogs for sport and work.
 

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I donot consider the Haus Ming lines as typical of sport breeding. You are right in many of these dogs compete in KNPV. Where we differ is that Nellie's premise of "sport lines" having too much drive(ball, play, prey) as opposed to more balance and biddability is something that has evolved in the past twenty years. Many police trainers have long since noticed this. Yes, the Haus Ming lines do work KNPV which is the closest sport to preparing real working police dogs, but....you don't see a lot of the top sport lines in KNPV work like the Haus Ming.Ask the KNPV people why, and I think you will find that these sport dogs don't generally adapt as well to this type of training.Now sport people are going to tell you that they can, but the practitioners of KNPV and the statistics themselves don't support this.
 
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