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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I received a notification this morning, from a comment I had made back in 2016. As I was reading MY OWN comment, I couldn't help but think to myself " what the heck were you talking about". sometimes you think you know, when in reality you have no idea that you don't know.
Gotta love the internet
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Well....share what it was 馃ゴ
I agree that some dogs can only be taken so far. However, Ultimately too many variables help to determine the outcome of adult dogs. I believe that a poorly bred dog with bad nerves given the proper training can be a more stable dog than a well bred dog with crappy training. Even with no training, environment itself can have the ability to effectively manipulate the dogs outcome. And as MAWL pointed out above. A lot of things are all relevant to individual realities.

There it is.
 

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I agree that some dogs can only be taken so far. However, Ultimately too many variables help to determine the outcome of adult dogs. I believe that a poorly bred dog with bad nerves given the proper training can be a more stable dog than a well bred dog with crappy training. Even with no training, environment itself can have the ability to effectively manipulate the dogs outcome. And as MAWL pointed out above. A lot of things are all relevant to individual realities.

There it is.
I'm curious how you'd change this statement today? Nerves and nerve strength is an interesting topic!
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I'm curious how you'd change this statement today? Nerves and nerve strength is an interesting topic!
I would say that in a nervy dog, with proper training and a lot of patience, we can raise that dog's thresholds. To exist in a neutral environment. Under pressure the dog will show its true self.
I still believe that a well bred, strong dog can be squashed. All confidence can be removed. To make a dog that shows weak nerves.
I just witnessed that. People had a really nice strong young dog. 2-3 yrs old. Nice power, plenty of aggression. They let someone take the dog to board and title for them. The dog came back emaciated, jumpy, scared of the stick, zero confidence. Totally beat down. They say that the dog is coming back. But, I have a hard time, believing that he'll ever be what he once was.
Makes me sick.
 

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So, and I agree, your original statement was not far off the mark! I think a lot of it has to do with the pressure applied, and how familiar it is or isn't to a dog.

Obviously once they reach their threshold, nerve strength or the lack thereof takes over and dictates their reaction. But, more than many people, I strongly believe a dogs threshold for many situations can be altered by a lot through training and desensitization.

And yes, I have always said that I don't think it would be hard at all to "create" a jumpy, fearful dog.

Unfortunately that sad story of yours gets replicated all too frequently. I have an acquaintance who had a good looking all-black Male GSD, but had no idea how to train it. So they took it to Sit Means Sit for a board and train. They dropped in unannounced at the halfway point, saw the dog in a panic getting random shocks from a defective ecollar while just sitting in his kennel. They took him home right there and then, but were still working on calming the dog 4 months later! And he still has very little discernable obedience. Really really sad!

I'm not badmouthing Sit Means Sit at all, I know others who have had great experiences working with them (at other locations). But if you're not around, stuff can happen! It's imperative to really know who it is working with your dog!
 

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Follow up question, did they put a title on him at the board and title?
 

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There are lot more traits that go along with nervy. A Sharp, defensive dog that has lots of aggression and is nervy has a very limited existence with finding the right home. Well bred dogs do not mean a guarantee in 鈥渟tellar nerves鈥 you may have some pups in a litter that inherited all the right stuff on the scale of nerves and others that did not. - No matter how good the sales pitch is and how much people want to believe it. There is alot more then experienced planned intent of what gets handed down. There are no guarantees. Not to say abusive training will not have its effects and cause damage. Life is always the true test. How the dog bounces back from it will tell you what they have. I suppose then for some the next question would be if the dog does wind up bouncing back and excelling - is it from having good nerves or good training.
 

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cdwoodcox, one of the frightening things about the internet is that some corners of it preserve our younger writings, whether we want it to or not. It can be fascinating and uncomfortable to read the words we set down, years or decades ago. If it is any consolation, we are no longer the person who wrote those words. Maybe we can take some satisfaction in being a better person, or at least a person who knows more things!
 

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cdwoodcox, one of the frightening things about the internet is that some corners of it preserve our younger writings, whether we want it to or not. It can be fascinating and uncomfortable to read the words we set down, years or decades ago. If it is any consolation, we are no longer the person who wrote those words. Maybe we can take some satisfaction in being a better person, or at least a person who knows more things!
And some of us are crotchety, older people 馃ぃ
 

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鈥淲ell bred dogs do not mean a guarantee in 鈥渟tellar nerves鈥 you may have some pups in a litter that inherited all the right stuff on the scale of nerves and others that did not. - No matter how good the sales pitch is and how much people want to believe it. 鈥 Very true. The worst thing is when the breeders start believing their own sales pitch and lose objectivity.

Thresholds change with age and life experience too. Sometimes ppl just have to slow down and let the dog grow up a bit,
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
So, and I agree, your original statement was not far off the mark! I think a lot of it has to do with the pressure applied, and how familiar it is or isn't to a dog.

Obviously once they reach their threshold, nerve strength or the lack thereof takes over and dictates their reaction. But, more than many people, I strongly believe a dogs threshold for many situations can be altered by a lot through training and desensitization.

And yes, I have always said that I don't think it would be hard at all to "create" a jumpy, fearful dog.

Unfortunately that sad story of yours gets replicated all too frequently. I have an acquaintance who had a good looking all-black Male GSD, but had no idea how to train it. So they took it to Sit Means Sit for a board and train. They dropped in unannounced at the halfway point, saw the dog in a panic getting random shocks from a defective ecollar while just sitting in his kennel. They took him home right there and then, but were still working on calming the dog 4 months later! And he still has very little discernable obedience. Really really sad!

I'm not badmouthing Sit Means Sit at all, I know others who have had great experiences working with them (at other locations). But if you're not around, stuff can happen! It's imperative to really know who it is working with your dog!
We can familiarize dogs to certain situations. The true test is what happens when those dogs are put under pressure in differing situations. A strong dog will have the nerves and drive to push through the stress. as stress increases so does the drives. Some dogs do not possess that. Once things get unfamiliar, new helper, removal of equipment, or pressure isn't relinquished or pushed further than the dogs trained threshold. That dog is gonna check out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Follow up question, did they put a title on him at the board and title?
yes the dog barely passed IGP 1. Wasn't worth the damage done. As I stated earlier, the dog was a nice dog. Beautiful aggression, this was a dog that would vent you if you messed up as a helper. Unfortunately, a lot of sport people do not like aggression. so.... these people destroyed the dog so far that during bitework, any showing of a stick and the dog would flinch and cower waiting for the beating. Sores around the dogs neck from prong and Ecollar.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
There are lot more traits that go along with nervy. A Sharp, defensive dog that has lots of aggression and is nervy has a very limited existence with finding the right home. Well bred dogs do not mean a guarantee in 鈥渟tellar nerves鈥 you may have some pups in a litter that inherited all the right stuff on the scale of nerves and others that did not. - No matter how good the sales pitch is and how much people want to believe it. There is alot more then experienced planned intent of what gets handed down. There are no guarantees. Not to say abusive training will not have its effects and cause damage. Life is always the true test. How the dog bounces back from it will tell you what they have. I suppose then for some the next question would be if the dog does wind up bouncing back and excelling - is it from having good nerves or good training.
[/QUOTE
There are lot more traits that go along with nervy. A Sharp, defensive dog that has lots of aggression and is nervy has a very limited existence with finding the right home. Well bred dogs do not mean a guarantee in 鈥渟tellar nerves鈥 you may have some pups in a litter that inherited all the right stuff on the scale of nerves and others that did not. - No matter how good the sales pitch is and how much people want to believe it. There is alot more then experienced planned intent of what gets handed down. There are no guarantees. Not to say abusive training will not have its effects and cause damage. Life is always the true test. How the dog bounces back from it will tell you what they have. I suppose then for some the next question would be if the dog does wind up bouncing back and excelling - is it from having good nerves or good training.
A sharp defensive dog with lots of aggression and a low threshold, or a sharp defensive dog with lots of aggression because of bad nerves. I myself like the first example. A fear biter not so much.
As far as litters differing or not every pup having stellar nerves. A good breeder should produce predominantly dogs of good nerves. Meaning confident, social, pups. not every pup will possess the same drives or extremes when it comes to those drives. But, I would hope that a breeder who has a bitch or stud that consistently produces nerve bags would stop breeding that dog.
Per if the dog bounces back, I would say that it would take a combination of good training and the dog having good enough nerves to bounce back..Best to not put the dog in that situation to begin with. But the **** happens.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
cdwoodcox, one of the frightening things about the internet is that some corners of it preserve our younger writings, whether we want it to or not. It can be fascinating and uncomfortable to read the words we set down, years or decades ago. If it is any consolation, we are no longer the person who wrote those words. Maybe we can take some satisfaction in being a better person, or at least a person who knows more things!
I agree.
 
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