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Solid Black WGSL??

11K views 29 replies 16 participants last post by  mharrisonjr26 
#1 ·
I was looking over the PDB forums and saw a post about a solid black WGSL from Russia. She was a beauty, but it has me a tad confused. Are there really solid black ones? I know there are obviously in the WL GSD's, but this is the first I have heard of this in WGSL's. Does anyone want to fill me in? :D Thanks!
 
#3 ·
That is sort of my question. Are the solid black pure WGSL or have the had WL mixed into them. I don't know much about genetics or the black gene. But I am intrigued by this for some reason.
 
#6 ·
Yeah, that's the discussion about the elusive dominant black gene. Black is recessive in GSDs but there are rumors about a line of Show Line dogs out of Eastern Europe that carry a dominant black gene. There's good evidence for it, but I think the person on the thread you're talking about may be about to get scammed.
 
#7 ·
I am going to be honest Emoore, I tried to follow the current thread, but gave up Way over my head! I saw that they had posted that female from Russia...was someone thinking about purchasing it?
 
#9 ·
I am curious to see how that plays out.... I think it has a 30+ page PDB thread written all over it :)
 
#10 ·
I was at an AKC show years ago and there was a solid black ASL dog, which I'd never seen before or since. Gorgeous dog! I haven't seen a black German showline dog before.
 
#11 ·
I had a solid black GSD growing up that I am pretty sure was ASL. It was long coat. Breeder's name was Ransom I believe and kennel name was Black Shadow Shepherds. I can't find any information on him though. This was probably 17 years ago now
 
#12 ·
Yes, there are dogs that are pretty much all German show line bloodlines who are solid black. I'm about 95% sure that these dogs have the dominant black gene.

The dominant black gene was deliberately eliminated (or mostly eliminated) from the GSD breed to help preserve the sable and saddle/black-tan color and pattern. The gene for solid black is in a different location (K locus) than the genes for sable/saddle/recessive black (agouti locus) and it "overrules" whatever agouti information the dog may carry. So a dominant black dog only needs to have 1 gene for black present to produce solid black puppies from any GSD it is mated with. It is also possible for a dog to have the dominant black gene and to have the recessive black gene.

Although these solid black conformation dogs are generally quite attractive, the question is: What are we going to do if the dominant black gene becomes common again in the breed?

Nowadays, it is possible to test for the dominant black gene--I think people would start demanding DNA tests on any black dog.

A dog with the dominant black color -- you don't know what sort of mask or what color their tan is; do they have the gene for the fading saddle? Well if you breed that black dog and some of the puppies are solid black and the rest have no mask or almost no saddle, you're SOL if you wanted to show those black/tan puppies. We all have seen the desire to have strongly pigmented black-red dogs--this dominant black gene hides that pattern, so you don't know what you're breeding. And unlike the recessive black gene that generally extends the coverage of the black areas on a sable or saddle patterned dog, the dominant black gene doesn't have any effect as far as improving the pigment of any puppies that do not inherit the dominant black gene (that is, the pups will either be solid black or will have no effect whatsoever from the parent's dominant black gene--because if they aren't black, they didn't get the gene).

Hope that makes some sense! :)
 
#25 ·
Yes, there are dogs that are pretty much all German show line bloodlines who are solid black. I'm about 95% sure that these dogs have the dominant black gene.

The dominant black gene was deliberately eliminated (or mostly eliminated) from the GSD breed to help preserve the sable and saddle/black-tan color and pattern. The gene for solid black is in a different location (K locus) than the genes for sable/saddle/recessive black (agouti locus) and it "overrules" whatever agouti information the dog may carry. So a dominant black dog only needs to have 1 gene for black present to produce solid black puppies from any GSD it is mated with. It is also possible for a dog to have the dominant black gene and to have the recessive black gene.

Although these solid black conformation dogs are generally quite attractive, the question is: What are we going to do if the dominant black gene becomes common again in the breed?

Nowadays, it is possible to test for the dominant black gene--I think people would start demanding DNA tests on any black dog.

A dog with the dominant black color -- you don't know what sort of mask or what color their tan is; do they have the gene for the fading saddle? Well if you breed that black dog and some of the puppies are solid black and the rest have no mask or almost no saddle, you're SOL if you wanted to show those black/tan puppies. We all have seen the desire to have strongly pigmented black-red dogs--this dominant black gene hides that pattern, so you don't know what you're breeding. And unlike the recessive black gene that generally extends the coverage of the black areas on a sable or saddle patterned dog, the dominant black gene doesn't have any effect as far as improving the pigment of any puppies that do not inherit the dominant black gene (that is, the pups will either be solid black or will have no effect whatsoever from the parent's dominant black gene--because if they aren't black, they didn't get the gene).

Hope that makes some sense! :)
So if I am understanding correctly then, the black is like the white gene? It is just a masking color, but there is a "true" color in the genetics?
 
#14 ·
That is very helpful Christine! I love all of your explanations! So do you think there are still dogs out there with the dominant black gene? i am going to be honest, I think they are beautiful, but I completely understand (now) why you wouldn't want to purposely breed for it. Although to be honest I love all of the GSD's, but when I get a pup it will be a standard WGSL :)
 
#15 ·
There have been solid black lines in the AS world in years past. Maur Ray and Bauerinoff, are a few off the top of my head. I don't believe in breeding for any color exclusively, but the issues that may come with the gene being dominat won't affect work or health no more than some of the other breeding schemes.
 
#16 ·
Cliff is right -- the black gene is *just* a color--doesn't affect temperament or health or anything other than appearance.

(But we all know how much we care about how our dogs look! It's one of the reasons we have GSDs!)

I *do* think the dominant gene is still around--whether it was reintroduced by an "oops" breeding to some Belgian sheepdog or whether it has stuck around hiding among the black recessives for the past 100 years. I think it is very, very rare and that the Russian show breeders are actively breeding for it and promoting it (and their dogs are beautiful) and selling their dogs abroad--and we may see it spread throughout the world all going back to one solid black bitch. It will be interesting to see the situation in 10 years, after another 3-5 generations of showline breeding of dominant blacks....
 
#19 · (Edited)
well - historically the old timers would say there were sable dogs and black dogs -- and the black was brought in by the Wurttembergers . I don't know ? how immediate does a recessive need to be to express itself. This pedigree after all does have Bodo Lierberg who represents the Wurttembergers .
Also there is a lot of information missing on the pedigree -- and -- we have to take a pedigree on trust that information is true and accurate.
 
#21 ·
Theoretically, the black recessive could stay hidden for many generations. However, although possible, I don't think it is likely in this case for several reasons:

1) The dog produces black with every female he is bred to--no matter her pedigree or coloring. The odds of one or two dogs having the recessive black gene hidden away for multiple generations are in the slim-but-possible range--but *every* breeding partner? Unlikely.

2) There are no typical indications of a dog who carries the recessive black in the non-black breeding partners, their parents, grandparents, siblings, or the puppies of the black to black-tan breedings that are not black.

3) The number of solid black puppies is extremely high--although there is a selection bias problem if we are taking our info from the database because there is obviously a high motivation to put the black puppies online.

4) On the side of the pure black parent, there is a line of pure black parents. That is, the possibility of a dominant inheritance pattern is supported by the visible evidence. In the parentage of dogs with the recessive black gene, it's unusual (but not impossible) to see an unbroken line of pure black parents. But with the dominant black, just as with the sable gene, it should be possible to figure out which parent in each generation contributed that color.
 
#20 ·
My black GSD even has large black "freckles" on his tongue. These are called "points." He comes from the Car Policia line and exhibits the expected very high prey drive. Great temperment and exceptional intelligent. He has been a great addition to our Sable and Black boy. He sure does get noticed frequently too.
 
#22 ·
I have never seen a black WGSL dog of long standing showline pedigree. No reason it theoretically couldn't happen though. vom Silbersee has blacks that they exhibit but I think WL are introduced. They used my WL male"s grand dam in their program. My males uncle was purchased by WGSL breeder for interjection into their lines. He could carry black recessive. With outcrossing, the black might appear more often as it may carry along.

ASLs exhibit all colors. Sables and blacks can win top placements. A recent GV carries black. I know of a nice select dog who is being bred to also a carrier. Quite a few blacks again hitting the Am showring. I have a black and a sable.
 
#23 ·
I have seen the number of blacks in the review increasing. My, what appears to be solid black bitch, has brown between her toes. So she is not really solid black, but the black covers all but between her toes.
 
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