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Discussion Starter #1
These posts are a perennial problem. Every time someone posts looking to breed their dog, or looking for a stud to breed to, or looking for a new brood bitch, or whatever, everyone gets all in a dither.

Some say these folks get "chased away" by people who advise against breeding. Sometimes the posts come across as snarky and mean, I must admit. But it seems that even when the replies are polite, the OP usually ends up getting butt-hurt.

But are we supposed to give them all the breeding information they want, no questions asked? To me, this isn't always ethical. Sure, if a well-known and well-respected breeder is asking for thoughts on a particular stud, that's one thing. But how are we supposed to reply to the "I want to breed my dog" posts from people who don't know the first thing about the breed in general, or breeding in particular? It seems they sometimes take offense to anything short of "Sure, I live close to you and I have the perfect stud, let's get together on Friday!"

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How about if you don't have anything to add to the conversation, mainly an answer, don't post at all.

I skip threads all the time if I know that I can't post something that will move the conversation forward or that will come across as counterproductive or rude.

We don't always need to express our opinion, just because we can. Sometimes it's best to stay quiet.


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Discussion Starter #3
How about if you don't have anything to add to the conversation, mainly an answer, don't post at all.

I skip threads all the time if I know that I can't post something that will move the conversation forward or that will come across as counterproductive or rude.

We don't always need to express our opinion, just because we can. Sometimes it's best to stay quiet.
Well, I feel like I've always got something to add, :) whether it's a desperate attempt to educate the OP, or a comment designed to bring the pedigree gurus out of the woodwork so that I can learn something, too.

I do hold my tongue when I can, and let everyone else do the dirty work. If everyone else would hold their tongue and the OP got zero replies to such threads, I guess that would be the ideal way to prevent hurt feelings... but you and I know that's not going to happen!
 

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Well, I feel like I've always got something to add, :) whether it's a desperate attempt to educate the OP, or a comment designed to bring the pedigree gurus out of the woodwork so that I can learn something, too.
I, for one, am glad you do. Even when we don't see 100% eye-to-eye, I always enjoy reading your posts. ;)

You know, I guess I don't really have a problem with how these threads typically go. Mostly people seem to try to be polite and informative, and they tailor their tone to the individual poster's apparent knowledge level. From the perspective of an outside observer, it seems like they mostly succeed. When the tone of the discussion goes downhill, as it sometimes does, it's almost always because of the OP getting defensive and/or evasive. But a lot of times people take their drubbing with surprising good grace, and I'm always heartened when I see that, because it's surely not easy to hold onto your dignity in such situations.

Anyway, you can only soften a "no, you probably shouldn't do that" so much. And a lot of the time, the answer is "no, you probably shouldn't do that." Hitting the right balance between candor and courtesy is hard. But mostly I think people are pretty good at it in those threads.

Better than I'd be, anyhow, which is why I try not to post in them.
 

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I, for one, am glad you do. Even when we don't see 100% eye-to-eye, I always enjoy reading your posts. ;)
Really? Well that's good to hear... since I can't seem to post anything without upsetting somebody, I'm glad at least one person gets something out of whatever I'm babbling about. :)

When the tone of the discussion goes downhill, as it sometimes does, it's almost always because of the OP getting defensive and/or evasive.
That's kind of what I was thinking. But is there a way to say what needs to be said without making the person defensive in the fist place? We always hear people say the forum is "running people off". Sometimes, when everyone is being polite and the OP is defensive anyway, I honestly don't understand why, or what in particular is upsetting.

I actually do make an attempt to soften what I say if it's not what the OP wants to hear, but maybe some posters will take offense to *anything* that boils down to "no, that's probably not a good idea". Which makes me wonder "Why did they ask that question if they didn't want opinions?"

Fortunately, I don't get asked about breeding very often at my grooming salon. Every once in a while someone will bring it up and I really have to bite my tongue, since people seem to be really sensitive about it, and I don't want to offend the people who pay my bills. :)
 

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I think this is so specific to the OP of the thread, that you can't put a brush-stroke, "this-is-how-we-handle-these-threads" rule to it. Generally, each OP has or lacks knowledge/experience, and the responses are in accordance with that.

I agree whole-heartedly with Merc. It's funny, but lately (at least to me) it seems that the "seasoned" members are the ones all up in a roar, defensive, and "butt-hurt." Most of the recent threads I've seen are humble, informative, and as kind as they can be to the OP, and then other members come on, roaring about how mean everyone is. It's actually quite comical to me lol. :rolleyes:
 

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My problem with it and other threads is the qualifications of those who are responding to the OP.

Breeding and training are two topics where I think care should be taken.
Since I'm not a breeder the best I can offer is what I want in one but I don't believe it is my place to interrogate and then directly or indirectly tell them it it not o.k. for them to breed their dog.
How is someone supposed to take, "What makes you think your dog is breed worthy"?

I don't like it when people tell me their spiritual path is the right one and I should be on it.

Same thing with breeding. Even the breeders on here that are respected don't all operate the same way and they are not all breeding from the same lines of dogs. Not the same pedigrees. So who is qualified to say what should be bred by who.

I know that some have agendas of their own but that doesn't necessarily qualify them to decide who should and should not breed.

Like anything else those who choose to breed have to start somewhere.

Almost no one agrees on training so I think we should state that what we are telling someone is our experience or belief and not say things like find a "positive trainer only".

There are many versions of positive trainers just as there are many views as to what training with physical or aversive training means.
 

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Really? Well that's good to hear... since I can't seem to post anything without upsetting somebody, I'm glad at least one person gets something out of whatever I'm babbling about. :)



That's kind of what I was thinking. But is there a way to say what needs to be said without making the person defensive in the fist place? We always hear people say the forum is "running people off". Sometimes, when everyone is being polite and the OP is defensive anyway, I honestly don't understand why, or what in particular is upsetting.

I actually do make an attempt to soften what I say if it's not what the OP wants to hear, but maybe some posters will take offense to *anything* that boils down to "no, that's probably not a good idea". Which makes me wonder "Why did they ask that question if they didn't want opinions?"

Fortunately, I don't get asked about breeding very often at my grooming salon. Every once in a while someone will bring it up and I really have to bite my tongue, since people seem to be really sensitive about it, and I don't want to offend the people who pay my bills. :)
I don't think you are going to ever make everyone happy. And I honestly think, *most coming on here that have never been here, asking about breeding, whole heartedly expect to get a bunch of support and excitement over new GSD puppies. So when they have that high of expectations, they are floored, and surprised when they get the complete opposite...opinions and suggestions to not breed....which they honestly, weren't even considering. No one likes to be told "No, I just don't think that's a good idea, and here's why." Especially when they are all excited about puppies...I mean, who doesn't love puppies!!
 

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My problem with it and other threads is the qualifications of those who are responding to the OP.

Breeding and training are two topics where I think care should be taken.
Since I'm not a breeder the best I can offer is what I want in one but I don't believe it is my place to interrogate and then directly or indirectly tell them it it not o.k. for them to breed their dog.
How is someone supposed to take, "What makes you think your dog is breed worthy"?

I don't like it when people tell me their spiritual path is the right one and I should be on it.

Same thing with breeding. Even the breeders on here that are respected don't all operate the same way and they are not all breeding from the same lines of dogs. Not the same pedigrees. So who is qualified to say what should be bred by who.

I know that some have agendas of their own but that doesn't necessarily qualify them to decide who should and should not breed.

Like anything else those who choose to breed have to start somewhere.

Almost no one agrees on training so I think we should state that what we are telling someone is our experience or belief and not say things like find a "positive trainer only".

There are many versions of positive trainers just as there are many views as to what training with physical or aversive training means.
I guess I just completely disagree. Are you saying that I have to successfully breed, work/show dogs to have an opinion on something like, "A stranger liked the way my dog looked at petsmart, said his bitch just went into season and wants me to breed."??? I don't think so.

Now, if someone posted pedigrees, and was asking advice, heck no I wouldn't respond....I am just learning about pedigrees....and I know lots of others on here that will pipe up that actually have knowledge and experience. But, I don't think you need to be a world-champion-breeder to urge against someone who wants to breed their dog to their neighbors dog, and wants advice on how to do the breeding....I wouldn't sit back and let a doctor do something obviously wrong or unethical, and not say a word because I haven't gone to medical school.
 

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I guess I just completely disagree. Are you saying that I have to successfully breed, work/show dogs to have an opinion on something like, "A stranger liked the way my dog looked at petsmart, said his bitch just went into season and wants me to breed."??? I don't think so.

Now, if someone posted pedigrees, and was asking advice, heck no I wouldn't respond....I am just learning about pedigrees....and I know lots of others on here that will pipe up that actually have knowledge and experience. But, I don't think you need to be a world-champion-breeder to urge against someone who wants to breed their dog to their neighbors dog, and wants advice on how to do the breeding....I wouldn't sit back and let a doctor do something obviously wrong or unethical, and not say a word because I haven't gone to medical school.
A stranger at Pet smart doesn't really apply here. That was personal and directed at you.

People can and do have opinions and are free to state them but as Cliff says all opinions aren't equal.

The actual breeders who do respond to these post are usually the most reasonable and least judgemental, which I find interesting.

I often agree with freestep and you Dani Fani but sometimes you just go places I wouldn't on certain threads.
 

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A stranger at Pet smart doesn't really apply here. That was personal and directed at you.

But it does, the most previous thread was a stranger asking to breed their dog to OP's based on looks and the fact that the female was currently in heat.

People can and do have opinions and are free to state them but as Cliff says all opinions aren't equal.

The actual breeders who do respond to these post are usually the most reasonable and least judgemental, which I find interesting.

I often agree with freestep and you Dani Fani but sometimes you just go places I wouldn't on certain threads.

Yeah, don't know what to tell you there. I have several friends that have been breeding/working dogs since the mid-80's, they are a bit older/more experienced than I, and have really taken on mentoring me. They always laugh when I get upset that someone is breeding flippantly, or when I get offended when people tell me prong collars/ecollars are abusive, etc....They say, "as you grow in the dog community, you realize that you can't change anyone's minds, that only experience and life lessons will change people's minds...not you....and they all say how they used to "fight the good fight" but now they have learned it isn't worth it, unless someone comes directly to them, in person, and is open to learn or try new things. So I guess I just need to age in the dog-world lol.
Response in bold :) Jack's Dad, I agree with you on a whole lot of stuff too. Sometimes I just let my rescue-experience cloud my response to the breeding-threads. I know I need to work on that. I swear, I try really hard to be as humble as possible. And I thought I only really responded to the "obvious" threads....Ie...petsmart stranger, or someone who clearly has no idea what they are doing...and even then, my biggest suggestion is to find a mentor....nothing beats real-life help, instead of internet-forum help. :)
 

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I think Selzer usually handles those kinds of questions really well. She answers the actual question and still manages to give her views on breeding without insulting or giving the OP the third degree.

Honestly, when someone asks as an example, how old a dog should be before she has a first litter the correct response isn't: "How do you know your dog is breed worthy? Who's the sire? Please post her pedigree. Have you had her x-rayed? Have you put titles on her? Do you have 40 years experience in breeding? Do you know that she can die giving birth? Are you ready to keep all the puppies if they don't sell?

Why not just answer the question?
I don't breed my female until after the age of.....
I like to wait until mine have...titles, x-rays, pre-lims, whatever.

Then engage the person in conversation: I take it you've never bred dogs before, what made you decide you might like to try it now, etc. etc. etc.

Sometimes a simple conversation gets you a lot further than giving a lecture. :)
 

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alot of good points made, mostly by Jacks Dad:)

When someone comes here and says "I'm breeding Fido who is akc to Fluffy down the street, cause I want a black puppy is this ok?"..

Once one (generalizing here), starts saying "Do you know how many dogs are in shelters?, Why breed your "pet" to a "pet"? Is the dog titled? WHY NOT??? Your pedigree stinks!" and the list goes on and on...

I think educating someone, or not putting someone on the defensive, (cause face it everyone loves their dog and thinks they are perfect! NO one wants to hear negative stuff about their dog) is better than lecturing.

I'll be the first to admit, some posts here make me want to scream..not only breeding, but training, and all these behavior issues I see...but I "try" to keep my cool or not respond.

I cant blame people for getting defensive like I said EVERYONE loves their dogs and think they are perfect, they don't want a bunch of people saying "you got nothing for a pedigree, your just a puppymiller, etc."

There is a way to "say it " and way not to "say it"..think before hitting the keyboard (and I admit, I can be at fault for doing just the above)..
 

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I think Selzer usually handles those kinds of questions really well. She answers the actual question and still manages to give her views on breeding without insulting or giving the OP the third degree.

Honestly, when someone asks as an example, how old a dog should be before she has a first litter the correct response isn't: "How do you know your dog is breed worthy? Who's the sire? Please post her pedigree. Have you had her x-rayed? Have you put titles on her? Do you have 40 years experience in breeding? Do you know that she can die giving birth? Are you ready to keep all the puppies if they don't sell?

Why not just answer the question?
I don't breed my female until after the age of.....
I like to wait until mine have...titles, x-rays, pre-lims, whatever.

Then engage the person in conversation: I take it you've never bred dogs before, what made you decide you might like to try it now, etc. etc. etc.

Sometimes a simple conversation gets you a lot further than giving a lecture. :)
Bravo!!! This exactly!!! Could not and did not say it better.


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it seems like the people asking about breeding or want to breed
are clueless. untill they have years and years of knowledge
they should leave the breeding to the pros.

i don't recommend breeder's to people. i find it hard to recommend
a breeder to someone that's nothing more than a name on a forum.
 

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i think all of those questions are fair and should be asked.
40 years experience, i think 10 years is acceptable. ;)

I think Selzer usually handles those kinds of questions really well. She answers the actual question and still manages to give her views on breeding without insulting or giving the OP the third degree.

>>>>> Honestly, when someone asks as an example, how old a dog should be before she has a first litter the correct response isn't: "How do you know your dog is breed worthy? Who's the sire? Please post her pedigree. Have you had her x-rayed? Have you put titles on her?

>>>>> Do you have 40 years experience in breeding?<<<<<

Do you know
that she can die giving birth? Are you ready to keep all the puppies if they don't sell? <<<<<




Why not just answer the question?
I don't breed my female until after the age of.....
I like to wait until mine have...titles, x-rays, pre-lims, whatever.

Then engage the person in conversation: I take it you've never bred dogs before, what made you decide you might like to try it now, etc. etc. etc.

Sometimes a simple conversation gets you a lot further than giving a lecture. :)
 

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I think Selzer usually handles those kinds of questions really well. She answers the actual question and still manages to give her views on breeding without insulting or giving the OP the third degree.

Honestly, when someone asks as an example, how old a dog should be before she has a first litter the correct response isn't: "How do you know your dog is breed worthy? Who's the sire? Please post her pedigree. Have you had her x-rayed? Have you put titles on her? Do you have 40 years experience in breeding? Do you know that she can die giving birth? Are you ready to keep all the puppies if they don't sell?

Why not just answer the question?
I don't breed my female until after the age of.....
I like to wait until mine have...titles, x-rays, pre-lims, whatever.

Then engage the person in conversation: I take it you've never bred dogs before, what made you decide you might like to try it now, etc. etc. etc.

Sometimes a simple conversation gets you a lot further than giving a lecture. :)
Another +1 here.

And I, too, have been guilty of chiming in on breeding threads, and training threads, and realized later that I should have remained silent.

Then again, I So wanted to chime in on the recent thread, while at the same time I disappointed myself every time I opened it up to read the updates. I could tell from the opening thread that the OP came in on the defensive, and what followed only confirmed my opinion on that.

This forum can be a great resource, but it also becomes sadly transparent to me that when a member resorts to all caps and I will *only* answer (reasonable!) questions in a PM, questions that could be informative for all the world who reads these threads, that the member's assertions are questionable. I might not have all the answers. I might suggest the wrong answer, sometimes, but I engage here with nothing to hide. So, I support the advice quoted, but am also trying to be realistic in saying that sometimes it's for the greater good that direct questions are posed.

When we engage here, we have a tricky balance to achieve. We have a responsibility to engage the individual member in an effort to promote and protect the breed. But we also have an even greater responsibility to inform a much larger audience...

It's okay to question. It's actually very responsible to question in a public forum. Clearly, not every member of a global forum will have the talent or motivation to question as eloquently as others. We are only human, after all.


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