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Discussion Starter #1
Baron’s latest idea was to stay outside at night. He started by becoming increasingly reluctant to come inside. I upped the value of the treats and that bribe worked for a time. But on Thursday night at 10 PM, he refused to come inside. He would lie down 20 ft. away and just when I could reach him, he jumped away. The fenced in backyard is large and he has bobby trapped it with so many holes so chasing him down in the dark of night was not an option. I went inside and just as I got to sleep, Baron decided to wake up the neighborhood. So, back I went - he played the same run away game. This game was repeated at his wake up calls at 11 PM, midnight, and finally at 1:00 AM, I dug out Sting’s old e-collar and plugged it in as it needs 14 hours to charge and I was not going to lose another night’s sleep. Then, I went outside but ignored Baron and played with his ball, I went in and out, also holding the treat. I got him inside and to bed. On Friday night, I put the e-collar on him, played tug with him as usual, and left him outside until bedtime. When I went to call him, he was lying the same 20 ft. away, just gloating. So I called again, and pressed the pager, that he ignored, then a low level shock - well, he just looked surprised as if there was a bee around him. So another cheerful call in a happy voice since I didn’t want Baron to associate me with the shock and at the same time, I upped the level, pressed the button, and he yelped and nearly knocked me down getting in the house, where in the interest of good sportsmanship, I had his high value treat waiting. In less than 5 minutes, Baron was sound asleep in his crate.
 

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I would be very careful using an E collar in that manner. This could have some very serious and negative consequences, that you may not recognize for a while.

I prefer that my dogs know that the stim is coming directly from me. I want my dogs to clearly understand and associate that the correction absolutely came from me and it is not some random surprise, spot in the grass or boogey man that corrected the dog. This is a critical training point when using an E collar. I've seen many good dogs messed up by not associating the stim to the undesirable behavior and that it comes from the handler. I also spend weeks conditioning the dog to the collar before I ever use it for a correction.

If this had been me, when Baron laid down in a spot in the yard, I would have told him "down and stay." I would have praised him for the down / stay. Then I would have walked over and praised again for the proper down / stay, petting him in the down. Then I would have grabbed his collar and walked him in.

From the first day I get a puppy it is imprinted that being in a down is a happy place and the dog always gets rewarded when I approach and it is in a down. This avoids the dog getting up and darting away.
 

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I would question your high level treat...

Also age of your dog that has holes all over your backyard.

It seem's Baron needs a little training and understanding who is boss..

Maybe some good hard exercise along with better food not treats to get him in the swing of things.
 

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Have you considered buying a bark collar, e or citronella and letting him stay out in the yard?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thank you for your input and interesting comments. The method I used for the e-collar is based on training hunting dogs. Though I realize there are other methods, this one serves my purpose. I used it to train my Aussie to be a quiet backseat passenger, and Sting not to run after deer. I prefer to use the pager first as then as the dog learns to respond, that is all that is necessary. For my Aussie after a month, I didn't even need to use the e-collar. Since the off leash area where I took Sting was close to a road and my concern was that the deer would cross the road and Sting would be in hot pursuit with a car coming , so he always wore the e-collar. A lot of this behavior with Baron was caused by the unusually warm fall nights. With winter coming and the subzero weather, he will be happy to come inside. I walk Baron twice a day, the first is a couple of miles for exercise, and next is a training walk. Right now he is obsessed with squirrels, so that walk is where the squirrels are and he gets a lot of practice in paying attention to me (so I do sudden turns, and figure eights, having him sit when I stop) and not the squirrels. For play, he loves the fetch/tug game which I do daily as a reward after I brush his teeth. I didn't want to leave him outside at night, because first I tried that with my husky who didn't bark, but she didn't get her sleep, so the in the daytime, she was tired out and didn't enjoy her walks. I also do believe in the importance of the dog sleeping in the bedroom on the floor as is explained in the Monks of New Skete books and also having the dog inside at meal times lying down on the kitchen floor.
 

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I also do believe in the importance of the dog sleeping in the bedroom on the floor as is explained in the Monks of New Skete books and also having the dog inside at meal times lying down on the kitchen floor.
I never read their books, what is the purpose of dog sleeping in the bedroom floor and dogs inside lying down eating their meals?
 

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Hmm, our foster mom had many dogs and she trained them to all come running in from the yard when they heard her whistle.
They knew that when they came in, they got a treat.
She said she whistled because it was too hard to call every dog by name.
Anyway her simple training technique ( clear cue + good treat...repeated on daily basis ) seemed to work well.
Rumo still responds, and will come in whenever we call him from our back door ( even if fast asleep on deck ).
It seems that if you can find a strong enough enticement, you could teach him to come in on cue...useful command!

I agree that an e collar could be confusing ( and are you sure you are not using it out of irritation with him)?

( My dog has been asking to go out at night a lot too! He loves the cold temperatures. The other night, I heard him catch something that squeaked a lot...then there was a sad silence...)
 

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e-collar

Yes I too use the e-collar and I donthave a problem with that. I have lost one dog to a speeding and not payingattention when another driver tried to get him to stop car because of deer chasealready. Yes she was obedience trained in recalls but no matter how wellyou train the dog, a deer/rabbit chase is far more rewarding then ANYtreat. I have a farm (no a fence would have to be at least 6ft' highto stop a large dog) that deer/rabbits/everybody else’s dogs/cats etc walkthru. He was raised around horses and at this time he hasn’t chased theanimals, since it's not fair to keep him penned up in the 10x15ft’ kennelwhen I am home/outside I use it when he goes outside. If he even starts thestalking walk towards the animal I press the button and when he comes back tome or the house he gets all praises and rewarded. I also will use it if he getstoo rough with the cat so that’s about it with the e-collar.
 

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How much fun and structured play do you two have together?
When I see a dog refusing recall in the situation you describe I tend to think there could be something missing in the relationship, at least from the dogs perspective. It could be the need for correction like you are doing now or perhaps something else like play and spontaneity?

Im not saying this is you, but I have witnessed this a few times. Sometimes people develop a routine that can be a bit regimented and lack fun from the dogs standpoint. In those situations when given the chance the dog will take it for all its worth regardless of consequences.

Intense, random, fun games with structure thrown in can go a long ways in building a better relationship and increase "our" value in the dogs eyes. That increase in value becomes something of a foundation for other aspects of training.

Again, I'm not saying this is you, just something I've noticed with some people and their dogs.
 

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I'm offering this knowing full well that I'm not a trainer nor have the amount of GSD experience that you do, but imho, the issue is the strength of the recall obedience and as I read your op several times, something that Sabis once said in another thread came to mind that I may be paraphrasing right now but it went something like this........he has the right to know when he has done something wrong.

Since this situation was just clear and outright disobedience, I think that the only fair and clear way to handle it would be a clear correction that he knows is coming from you and nowhere else,, or a longline until his recall can be trusted in this specific scenario.

The other two examples of your other dogs, Using it for Sting while in intense drive or your other for whining in the car, both dogs were in a very different emotional state.

Fwiw, when I have had to sharply correct my boy, I have always made it very obvious the correction came from me and not something that he didn't understand.

I think when Barron ran to you the only reason he did was out of fear. You are obviously his safe zone but there wasn't anything that he should have been afraid of at that time in his own back yard. The chase game is fun for a dog but they need to know that the recall is non-negotiable and that a correction from you is part of that deal. (Whether the correction is a stern verbal or something else depends on the dog).

I also just found the golden key to rocket recall through play. I'm practicing it through play and proofing it while my guy is deep in thought, nose glued to the ground. It's a blast and will reinforce the recall much better but until then, if he lags recall while nose to the ground he gets enough of a correction to get him back to me then a praise, attaboy pat and a release to go and use his nose as he will. I know you know this method but went off track a little with my own recent experience. Lol.

It's just some thoughts that you might find helpful.
 
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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks again for all your comments. I know you all mean the best for Baron but you don't know him. Yes, he looks so charming on my avator but looks are very deceptive. Underneath that pretty coat, he is a very tough stubborn dog. He reminds me very much of my husky. If Baron were not DNA tested and AKC registered, I would suspect he were part husky. He is not fearful nor obeys out of fear, but will out of respect. Any weakness on my part, he will exploit to get his own way. To give him his due, he does not pout or hold a grudge, but will go along with the program when he realizes the consequences of not going along are not pleasant for him. He is young still and just nearly 16 months. While out walking him one day when he was 6 months old, a lady pulled up in her car, said to me "I had a gsd just like him. He turned out to be good dog. But you have 3 1/2 years to go until that time". I have thought of her words many times. An update: last night (only the second night), Baron responded to the pager. That reminds me also of the Monks of New Skete, where one good correction is worth a thousand weak ones.
 

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@Mary Beth, Yeah, I think using the word "fear" was a wrong choice of words in my response since it could be taken as a generalization for you and Barron. I just wanted to let you know that I'm positive that you don't train in a manner that relies on fear for obedience. It sounds like Barron already got the connection of what you wanted to achieve.

With respect to the e-collar, I was just going by what I have watched and read and then my own experience of flubbing up with it with my guy.

He sounds like a really smart and good dog. I do love a dog that does not crumble and is able to accept fair consequences without worrying about backlash or fall out. Learned that through my guy but it took way longer than 16 months for me to get it.

Thanks for that updated post and I mean that sincerely.
 
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Did you introduce the E collar full force the first time he ever wore it? To save yourself some potential negative consequences, why not take him out on a long line?
Are you resorting to the E collar out of convenience to not have to go outside yourself in the dark?
I observed a similar behavior with Griff (10 month old male) a few weeks ago; I stood by his outdoor kennel and when he got the command to "Kennel up!" (he always gets a treat and one-on-one cuddling, which he loves and me too), when he obeys. One time he discovered that he had a choice by going inside the house instead. So now, I have him "Stay Close!" and we walk to the kennel together, off leash, which works. It would have been overkill to use an E collar for that.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Heartandsoul Thank you for your understanding. I appreciate your comment.

@wolfy dog I first put the e-collar on Baron that evening before I brushed his teeth. Then left him outside. As is the routine, after I finished up chores about 15 minutes later and also to give him time to potty, I then took his ball and played his fetch/tug game with him. I then left him outside for about 2 hours. Then as is the routine, it was time for bed. Then I went outside and called him. When he didn't respond, I first used the pager, then a low setting, then increased the power. That is when he responded and came inside and ate his treat. The next night (last night), he responded to the pager. I am using the e-collar so Baron can have free access to the very large backyard which he enjoys - it is his playground :) But at the same time, he needs to learn to come in when called. I feel that is in the best interest for Baron and tethering him is not.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Update: last night when I opened the backdoor, Baron came right inside :grin2:
 
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Nice! With or without the e collar?
With it of course :) That was only the 4th night with the e-collar. So the transmitter uses were first night pager- shock, nights 2 & 3 pager only, 4th night - nothing. It is going to be at least a month especially with these mild nights of him wearing the e-collar and I don't need to use the transmitter, before I will give a trial run without the e-collar. As I've learned with Baron, after a period of good behavior, he will test the rules and will pick a time when I've tired or busy, just to see if he can get away with it. I'm hoping once he matures he will outgrow that and settle down. My husky who I adopted when she was 2 years-old did not stop testing the rules until she was in her senior years.
 
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Reminds me of Graeson, a black GSD that we got from the then local shelter. Graeson was turned in to the shelter because he loved to explore and it was driving his then owners crazy. So we adopted Grae and brought to my girl friend's farm-325 acres in southern MD.

But the exploration urge in Graeson meant that every chance they got, he was exploring. This in an area where the locals had no qualms about shooting dogs who chased deer. So I bought a E collar, range of 1/8 mile and put it on Graeson. Grae would look at me and carefully ease himself out to beyond the transmitter's range. I believe that he gave me the proverbial "finger" when beginning his run. And then he was off and running.

So I invested in a collar with more range, put it on Grae and waited. That cured his wanderlust and for the rest of his life, and as long as the collar was on him, he did just fine. As time went on, we reduced the stim that he got, just reminding Grae that he was allowed to wander, or just deer.

Some dogs are fine with E-collar; others are not. We had Sarek who we tried unsuccessfully to use the E-collar on. But Sarek thought that the stim that had gotten from the collar was coming from where he was in the yard. So Sarek just didn't go to that part of the yard. Duh.

In short if it works on your dog, then use it judiciously.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
@rabsparks That's a very interesting observation of how different dogs react to the e-collar and I do agree with you that it should be used very judiciously. I think if used incorrectly it can cause problems. To me it is a last resort. I was concerned Baron may react by associating the shock with coming inside or just move to a different part of the yard like your Sarek did. That is why even though Baron had been getting more and more stubborn at coming back inside at night, i tried bigger and better treats, even going so far as to get ready like I was taking him for a ride in the car and going into the garage. That all worked for a time but then Baron caught on, and must have thought "we're not going anywhere, I'll just stay outside, she can't make me come in". Fortunately Baron made the right connections with the collar. The timing went well. He was 20 ft. away. I was cheerfully calling him, he went into his ignore act, but then when it wasn't fun anymore, he ran to safety - where I was just outside the door. Last night, he again came right inside. Now my previous gsd, Sting, made the association of the transmitter. He would obey when all I would do was put my hand in my pocket where the transmitter was. I sometimes think these dogs are too smart for their own good!
 
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