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Discussion Starter #1
My 3 year old was doing extremely well after I started adding coconut oil and goat milk kefir to his food. He had a purple rash on his groin which I have been treating with a once daily application of Vetericyn. Two weeks ago I gave him a Bravecto tablet and his skin flared up with a section of new red rash spots within 5 days. He also began constant scratching. Then three days ago, we were massaging him under his fur and found a scaly, scabby lump. There is a second one the size of a quarter on his chest just below the armpit. Neither is in a spot he can reach with a toenail.

I got him to the vet Wednesday and he is on antibitiocs. They took a scraping of each spot and a tape sample of the worst part of the red rash. We asked for a sensitivity test too. The vet said that type of skin flare up is most likely due to an allergy to food, fleas ( less likely because there are no fleas right now and he has had no bites), or environmentals.

I looked for the Bravecto tablet inert ingredients list to check for allergies but I threw it away and I can’t find it online. He has taken it for two years and has had one other skin lesion a few months ago. Otherwise, no skin reactions. He has been on Fromm for 2 1/2 years. I change the flavor occasionally to salmon but he’s mostly on the whitefish recipe, grain included. He has a self diagnosed chicken allergy. Where do I start trying to figure out what exactly is causing the skin lesions and rashes? How do you narrow it down to a single cause?
 

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Bravecto
http://www.wideopenpets.com/bravect...on+Suspected+in+Numerous+Dog+Deaths+Worldwide
Look at the 3rd chart down Highlighted in yellow:
Species: Dog
Route of Administration: ORAL
It’s about 19 pages long of side effects ranging from the most reported adverse effects to the least adverse effects!
http://yourpetsneedthis.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Bravecto-fluralaner-ADE-report.pdf
Face book page on Bravecto: https://www.facebook.com/groups/411371212394679/about/


Glad you are not giving this to him anymore. Especially since you noted the reactions he has to it.



Hope the rash improves soon.


Don't forget to give him a good human grade Probiotic, for his gut, 2 hours away from the antibiotic.


Moms :)
 

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Discussion Starter #3
He had a mild case of mange and Bravecto cleared it up completely with one dose, so we kept using it. Now I need to find a replacement. We went to a pill because he has an aversion to topicals. A serious aversion. I read those reports before but at the same time that is just a small fraction of dogs who have no side effects at all from it. It may not be the active ingredient but the inert ingredients that he is allergic to. I don’t know what those ingredients are. I should have checked more carefully.

Thank you for mentioning not to give probiotics and antibiotics together. Why is that?
 

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The Bravecto is certainly suspicious. It's a 3-month pill as you know, so it is going to be in his system for a while. Did the vet talk with you about possibly using an antihistamine to tamp down the current severity of the suspected allergy?

For the future, do you need flea and tick protection, or just flea?

If it's just fleas, you might opt to just give a Capstar pill as needed if he goes places with fleas, and spray the yard with Wondercide during the season so that he won't pick them up at home. Capstar has no lasting effect -- it kills fleas that are there in the moment, and that's it. There's an OTC generic of the same med now sold at WM ("Capguard" or something like that).

Switching to a long-acting collar like Scalibor or Seresto might also be worth thinking about for flea/tick control.

NexGuard is another RX oral anti-flea/anti-tick med. It's a little more expensive than Bravecto because it has to be administered monthly. Instead of buying a 3 pack, though, see if your vet will sell you just one, to see if it triggers any reaction. It's highly effective -- our vet has us using it in the rescue on all the tick-infested dogs that come in, as it causes them to drop off and die pretty fast (so if you miss any pulling them off, it will get them).

I think I recall seeing Bravecto has a higher incidence of side effects, so maybe the NexGuard will work better for you. We've used a lot of NexGard on dogs in the rescue and not seen bad reactions yet, and these are usually immune-compromised foster dogs who are likely to react (emaciated, sick, heartworms, etc.).

Comfortis and it's sister-med Trifexis are also pills with anti-fllea benefits, but not anti-tick. However, they seem to have a lot of serious adverse reaction reports, and nobody seems to know why a very small number of dogs get life-threatening reactions (even though most dogs tolerate it well)....so I honestly avoid them.

Sentinel is another heartworm/flea prevention combo product in a pill form. I think it's flea prevention might just be stopping the flea's reproduction, so it might need to be used together with something like Capstar, if there is an active infestation. I've heard that Sentinel is among the more well-tolerated products, so this might be an option for fleas.

OTOH, if he just can't tolerate certain flea meds, you may want to think about shifting to Wondercide's dog spray once the weather warms up (you can spray your hands and rub the dog, if he hates spray) until you get it figured out.


Environmental allergies are a bear to figure out. We've had a couple in rescue that were allergic to GRASS, but their flareups were worse in Spring and Fall. In winter, I'd think about household stuff -- dust/mold, laundry detergent (esp. Tide, which is notorious for making allergic people itch), fabric softener (even the "natural" brands like Seventh Gen can trigger allergic reactions), etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I don’t use any soaps with allergens and no fabric softeners. Last bedding wash, I didn’t use any soap, just water. Our yard is awfully muddy this time of year, so there could be something in the dirt. He likes to run in it with toys and drop the toys in the dirt. Mold could be anywhere and I can’t get rid of it if it is. Same with dust. I do my best.

By not tolerating, I mean he goes nuts when I squirt anything cold onto his back, so I get one squirt, then he’s off and dancing around. He is very squirmy even if I tell him to stay. He will break a stay to avoid Advantage. He got so anxious last time, he broke a door. We don’t have as many ticks as the east coast but we get enough that I like having the prevention. Whatever Bravecto stops covers the ticks we get here. His coat is black, short and dense, so if he had a tick, I might not see it. I only found the scabs because of the scale coming off of them. So I need something for ticks too.

We got a Cytopoint shot to stop the itching until this settles down.

Is there any reliable allergy testing available for dogs? Trial and error doesn’t seem to work very well. My other dog is sick with something else and I have a houseful of company, so I’m pressed for time but things will settle down soon. Lots of rushed vet visits this week.
 

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Thank you for mentioning not to give probiotics and antibiotics together. Why is that?
Because the antibiotics kill all bacteria, good and bad. Probiotics are good bacteria. You should give the probiotics 2 hours after the antibiotic to allow the anti to do their job and kill the bacteria and the pro follow to replenish the good.


With the itching and the rash, that implies an allergic reaction. Did the vet give anything for an antihistamine?

If you suspect allergies, get him tested and save him grief and you money. for years I was all Chicken Chicken Chicken because that's what the internet says. Mine is allergic to grass and dust mites. Zero protein allergies. Itching is far worse in the winter from the forced hot air heat and being inside so obviously the mites causing it. The biggest symptom of the grass was his tracking. Do you do IPO? for some reason I thought you did? If so, pay attention to his tracking. Is he acting lost? Is he snorting and clearing his throat?
 

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Ok, I will wait to give probiotics for 2 hours after his pill. We don’t do IPO but we do tracking for fun on big fields of grass. He snorts sometimes, not often. He never acts lost. He has 100% focus when he follows a scent.

How do they test dogs? He got a Cytopoint shot rather than antihistamines. I can ask about those. Because he had stomach problems before, I prefer not to load up on lots of pills at the same time, but I can try them after. However, I don’t know which to use. I went through it with my last male. We tried three types of antihistamines and none worked.
 

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Cytopoint is awesome! It shuts down the itching. I used Claritin with Seger, 1 pill 2x day. but even then when he got to the 2nd leg he was snorting and chuffing. You could see a lack of confidence and that he was having problems. I added apoquel and it was a total turn around in less than 24 hours. Without that, we never could have trialed at regionals.

they test just like they do people. They just draw blood and send it out. Or you can go to a Derm, have him knocked out and do the scratch test. I had blood drawn for seger. They test for various things. One test is for food. The other panel is environmental. Fleas/ plants / trees/ grasses/ mites.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
We tried Apoquel, and I forget why we stopped using it. I will look into local testing. If it’s environmental we can’t cotrol most of that. Can they test for food?
 

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yes. There is a panel just for food.

Did the Cytopoint stop the digging? The digging causes damaged skin that opens it up to infection. So if it worked, then you have somethin to help control the symptoms. At least if you know what they are allergic to you can control the exposure to some extent. we just started allergy shots with seger. I hope it works but we won't know for months.
 

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@Magwart, I’m finally looking at flea and tick prevention. Thank you for the detailed post. NexGuard sounds more like what we need. He scratches collars a lot, so I’m not going to put a collar with flea meds on him. Aren’t ticks different in different parts of the country? Does one medication cover all ticks?

I got back his results and I’m very disappointed. We learned nothing new from the tape or swab tests. It’s an overgrowth of a common staph bacteria and one other, exactly what he had two years ago,when we did the same test. The medications the vet gave us are exactly what he needed and the condition cleared up, but he could get it again.

I had a lot of company over the holiday and all our routines were disrupted. Ever since I was involved with fostering, I’ve kept all my dogs on routines as much as possible. A normal routine literally cured one rescue of anal fistulas. It may seem far fetched, but I wonder if stress from guests could cause both my dogs to experience symptoms at points where they are weakest? He had a skin flare. My other dog had digestive problems. She refused to eat. After several vet visits, we have no new disgnosis for either of them.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
yes. There is a panel just for food.

Did the Cytopoint stop the digging? The digging causes damaged skin that opens it up to infection. So if it worked, then you have somethin to help control the symptoms. At least if you know what they are allergic to you can control the exposure to some extent. we just started allergy shots with seger. I hope it works but we won't know for months.
Sorry it took so long to reply. I’ve been offline. The Cytopoint may have worked some but he still scratches a few times a day. I don’t know why. Mostly in the morning when he first wakes up. The sore spots were on his upper back just below the shoulders and under his armpits both areas he can’t reach by scratching. I later found anothrr oozy spot on his back just above the base of his tail where he can’t reach.
 

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We found a stray poodle the day before Hurricane gloria whose tail was chewed off we think he may have did it. We kept him intact we thought he been through enough. He was severely allergic to fleas and other things even one would cause a problem sores and rashes bald back. The only dog I owned with allergies. Vet treated him with presnisone not that I recommend it but he did damage his back from all the itching and did it did give relief. He was older and eventually the allergies seemed to disappear but was kept on low dose of pred for other reasons. Also sarcoptic mange is successfully treated with ivermectin - two doses by the vet and it’s all that scratchy is over with.
 

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Isn’t ivermectin dangerous?
When prescribed by a vet and treated by a vet it does take care of the issue well. That is why I mentioned my poodle - he was older and pulled muscles in his back just to scratch leading to back issues. He scratched for allergies although mange is a very vicious itch and is very stressful to the dog which to me is more harmful. Of course I am no vet and to be discussed with yours or a second opinion but I have seen vets use it with mange be easy to treat and rid of with ivermectin. I also had a dog first treated for allergies it turned out to be sarcoptic mange a month later . The vet treated the dog with ivermectin and capstar and the dog stopped itchy the next day - we followed up with second treatment and that was it. I would not mess around with mange. My German shepherds are taking interceptor - a heartworm preventive which is ivermectin my first gsd was on interceptor for 12 years. I would discuss it with your veterinarian.
 

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Ivermectin is not dangerous at the levels in HW prevention pills. They're so low that even MDR1 dogs are supposed to be able to take them safely (and that's causing some of us to wonder if going that low is why ivermectin-resistance is emerging in the Gulf Coast, but that's another discussion). OTOH, people who dose dogs with cattle ivermectin products absolutely risk OD'ing their dogs.

Ivermectin given at levels to treat demodex is something like 1000x higher dose. THAT is a problem for MDR1 dogs.

The researchers at WSU are the leaders in MDR1, and here's what they have to say:

https://vcpl.vetmed.wsu.edu/docs/li...-mdr1-mutation-may-2016.pdf?sfvrsn=4a75cb38_0


Here's the key language from the linked report:

"Macrocyclic Lactones

If used according to label doses

In mutant/mutant & mutant/normal dogs, all US FDA-approved heartworm
preventives (ie, ivermectin, milbemycin, moxidectin, selamectin) are considered safe for use.

See specific trademark products for label indications.

MDR1 mutation

Although the label heartworm prevention doses of the following drugs
are safe to use in dogs with MDR1 mutation, higher doses can result in adverse neurologic effects in mutant/ mutant and mutant/normal dogs
(anecdotal).
—"
 

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Yes ivermectin for treatment for mange is much higher then the regular dose needed. Interceptor does not prevent mange but I believe advantix plus does. We had our collie on something else for heartworm. It is interesting to read about the chemo in mdr1 dogs.
 

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For something like mange I would do the mdr1 test not sure how long that takes. I know the vets would not prescribe my collie interceptor though.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Thank you all for the suggestion, but my dog was tested and they didn’t find mange. It was a common bacteria.
 
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