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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all!! First time on forum :). I am a mother to 3 extremely intelligent, beautiful, amazing, loyal and loving daughters...one just happens to walk on all fours, NEVER has a bad hair day and best of all she has yet to demand a cell phone or steal my makeup!!
Emma Bear is 5 yrs old, black and silver and very healthy. Today I am asking for advice as my husband and I are considering allowing her to have one litter, keep one of her puppies and allow our breeder to find homes for the remaining family members.
Questions I have before we even approach our breeder are 1) is Emma too old at 5yrs (just had bday 4/26). 2) We would allow our breeder to choose the male, meet him, etc - does the males personality have any impact on the pups temperament? 3) obviously, we are not breeders, so we would not take on anything at home - planning the birth at/and with the breeder???...(we have a very special relationship with them) is what I personally have mind. Check ups like a woman would have, like I had LOL, and being there at the time Emma delivered and leaving her in capable hands until I was EDUCATED enough to care for all.
We have land, space and areas to care for the additions if homes are not found, etc. We have planned this out. I do not want to become a breeder - want I do want is to carry a piece of Emma on, a legacy of sorts. However, if age is a factor we will not risk it.
Lots of love to other GSDaughters & Sons ;) <3
Jen


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I think it's wonderful that you obviously love your dog so much. It appears you have done an amazing job with her and want what's best for her.

When it comes to breeding, there should be a lot of thought that goes in to it. Not just is she too old and do we have time. Since your girl will be bringing life into the world at your behest, it is super important that you make sure she is healthy before any breeding. Please understand that not all whelpings go easily. A Csection may be needed. Which is full anesthesia and all associated risks, including death of your wonderful dog. Is it worth her life?

But more than that, if she has a litter of 8 pups, it's your responsibility to the potential owners of those new pups, that they have the genetics to be a healthy dog for a long time.

To ensure this, both your girl and the potential sire should be cleared by the OFA or PennHIP as free from hip dysplasia and elbow dysplasia. They should also both be free of Degenerative Myelopathy. All of which could make one their puppies have a devastatingly painful life.

Temperament is also very important, the GSD is first and foremost a working dog, so to preserve the integrity of the breed, both parents should have at least some kind of working title. I understand that you are probably breeding for pets only. But those titles show that the dogs have stable temperaments and clear heads. And THAT'S what you want to pass on to new owners.

You are going to get some VERY strong opinions on this subject, and many will not be "friendly". As a board full of die hard GSD enthusiasts, there are lots of strong opinions on breeding dogs that don't conform to standard in health, temperament and drive.

I wish you luck, I don't recommend you breed her. Honestly.

If you love her and her lines, and have a good relationship with her breeder, then maybe just consider getting a puppy from the same lines.


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If you have a special relationship with her breeder (if they are reputable breeders) I would be asking them these questions... But no she is not to old, Yes the fathers temperament has a role in what the pups temperament will be like... I would be having the mothers hips and elbows xrayed and cleared for HD and ED and the father the same... Too many people breed their female so "they can have a legacy live on" as you put it...

If your breeder is game (if they are responsible reputable breeders) and you speak to them about health testing ect and they think she would be a good Dam then it is up to you if you want to breed her, but I would speak to them about it they would know more about this dog (again if they are good breeders and not BYB) than any of us here and would know her stock and what male to breed her with ect.

best of luck
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thank you both for the information you provided!! It was very helpful!!! Fear comes along with this decision and so it isn't something we would just jump into at all, we have actually been going back and forth for 3 years now. Obviously, time is what has pushed it to the for front. Originally, the breeder was the person who commented on Emma's blood line, temperament, etc. after several years of us taking her back for bordering during vacations and such, and wanting to mate her with another one of their GSD's. At that time I was way to protective, scared and anxious to consider it. If death is a huge possibility than I already know we will NOT move forward. Emma has a furry companion, a female mini pug...they are soul sisters, LOL (parents dog).
Thanks again!!!


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No, you should not breed her. GSDs (and any breed, really) should only be bred by people who know what they are doing, and have an expert, in-depth understanding of bloodlines, pedigrees, and how they combine. GSDs suffer from a lot of genetic problems, some of which are invisible to the eye, and only by doing a lot of testing and knowing what the bloodlines tend to produce would you find them. It is NOT a fun thing for an amateur to try and delve into. With so many GSDs in shelters, rescues, on the streets, and worse, we don't need to breed more of them just for the sake of it.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thank you Freestep, I certainly value your opinion.
In no way, shape or form was I or I am planning on becoming a "breeder", doing it for the "sake of it", doing anything on my own, or any of the other items you mentioned without a vet or our breeder if we even decided to mate or GSD with another suitable, well documented and researched GSD. I would never abandon our pups or any animal at all and I do not condone this type of behavior in any person.
Maybe, you are venting, possibly because of frustration due to others ignorantly doing something they are not educated in and/ or a different topic? Or possibly, interpretation of emotion in your message was miss-understood. Please note though, aggression is never a good approach, no matter how passionate you are about a cause, issue etc. - what happens is you deflect ones attention off the real issue, guards come up and all that is present is hostility, where as truly you just wanted me to see that breeding really isn't a good thing at all, it's dangerous.
Regardless, thank you for your response.


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1) I am considering Emma to have one and only one litter with and at her breeder, the one we purchased her from, in that environment and with their care
2) I will not take any money for the puppies, all funds will go to that breeder and business
3) I will not/do not plan to obtain a license or papers to become a breeder, ever. I have a career.
4) No financial gain or desire

So, I am not a breeder. That is not the question - How to become a breeder. There were 3 questions, see original post
Thank you.




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I understand that you want that you want another dog as special as your female , a version of her , her progeny. Unfortunately that is not what you may get . Nobody knows the pedigree , nor the sire that your females breeder would select . The pedigree might be so random that there is little chance of getting more or less the same.
Agreed -- temperament is extremely important but
to this " But those titles show that the dogs have stable temperaments and clear heads. And THAT'S what you want to pass on to new owners."

not entirely --- how many dogs on this forum do come from backgrounds with titles and they are fearful, unapproachable etc etc . I know I know, better than nothing -- but not a guarantee by a long shot .
 

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If your dogs come from a conscientious and knowledgable breeder, I think you should have this discussion and assistance come from them as opposed to a forum board. If the dog isn't from this type breeder, then I would not attempt it with the current resources you have at your disposal. There are many ins and outs to having a well thought out litter....very daunting for a one time only person. Work with your breeder.
 

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We all love our dogs, we would not be here if we did not love them and the breed. Some here are super passionate about overpopulation and irresponsible breeding. Some are so jaded by so many people who want to breed their dog "just one time" for various reasons, mostly because of how much they love them, but yet, do not have a deep understanding of proper breeding practices, the breed standard, or the problems in over population mostly generated by back yard breeders.

Please try to understand that frustration and concern is why you get responses that may seem "aggressive" to you.

First off, responsible and reputable breeders are defined as such because they breed responsibly....using health tested breeding stock, understanding the standard and with goals of producing dogs whose character, appearance and temperament are as defined by that breed standard. Breeders who just breed dogs for pets without that care and concern are not considered responsible or reputable...they are commercial breeders who breed more for financial gain - ie a business...or a back yard breeder who cares nothing about the standard, the quality, or the life long future of the pups they produce...these are the ones whose pups will most likely have temperament problems or be sold to people who end up not keeping their dogs and then those dogs end up in rescues and shelters or on the streets.

The fact that your breeder wants to do this, while you get one puppy and she gets the remainder makes me very skeptical....Let's say there are 8 pups and she sells them for $1000 each - which is higher than newspaper price, but lower than the average breeder who uses titled health tested breeding dogs....you get one puppy, and she gets $7000????? Do you think that is fair??? Ethical??? I have a major problem right there - that a breeder would agree or propose that arrangement....

Most of us here who are breeders are knowledgeable, train our dogs, title our dogs, health test our dogs. We know the investment in a breeding female and in producing a litter. Taking a pet dog, who has not been shown or trained and evaluated for working ability, who belongs to someone else, and getting a litter "just because" is just not going to happen unless there are extraordinary circumstances ( a female line is lost in some accident and the only source left is that pet female for example)...

From another perspective, your female is 5 years old. That is doable for a first litter, but higher risk than a 2 or 3 year old.... There is always a chance of losing a female in producing a litter, a C section and the dog reacts to anesthesia...happened last year to a friend of mine...a breeder who does not want to use a vet and loses the female when a puppy gets stuck...have seen that happen too...other risks to the females health, just like with women...dogs die in whelping pups. Is this risk worth having a pup from your beloved pet???? I know there was a thread that really including a comprehensive listing of what can go wrong....hopefully someone has it bookmarked and can post it.

I guess you can tell that I feel that it is not a good idea to breed your female on many many levels. I believe you should spay her and buy a puppy who is related if you want a relative of hers.

Lee
 

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My thoughts are.....IMO 5 years is kind of pushing it having a first litter just because. I know lots of bitches that breed at this age but most started at age 2-3. If it's only matter of getting one puppy for yourself and already having a good relationship with the breeder, why not get a puppy from the same sire or dam (or even a repeat) or the same type of lines from the original breeder? Since you keep saying you don't want to be a breeder, it just doesn't seem worth it to go through all the hoops and all the risk just for one litter that it sounds like you have no control over (yet it's your dog which is like your own daughter who will be at risk). I wouldn't do it just to get a puppy. There are other ways of getting a really nice puppy that is very similar or related to your bitch. I would consider it if you were really interested in breeding and willing to accept all of that responsibility and risk. This is also assuming that the dog is a nice specimen with the appropriate health checks.
 

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Thanks Lee, I appreciate your response.
Actually, because of Emma's health, extraordinary temperament, qualities, bloodline and the death of her mother (which was the breeder's best female and a devastating lost for them), and a new addition of an "amazing" male - we were approached while picking her up after bordering her. At that time I immediately said "no way"! At that time I didn't understand bloodline, pedigree, etc. Nothing else has been discussed with the breeder, no details, no contracts. In my posts I never commented on whether or not Emma was a show dog or not. I never commented on the reputable background of the breeder as well.
Emma is not my "pet", she is member of my family, apart of our home. Included in every life decision we make.
Now Emma is 5 yrs old...the conversation was becoming more frequent with just my husband and I; since death is a HUGE possibility per all these posts our minds are made up, never.
You all have scared the living day lights out of me, and to be very honest put a negative tone on this forum where as I won't be returning; too much aggression, hostility, judgement and all without knowing people at all or facts...never assume. You have assume way too much in all your posts, it is such a terrible thing to do.
Emma would have been an amazing momma, but in a sense she already is :)

Thank you,
Jen


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Thanks Lee, I appreciate your response.
Actually, because of Emma's health, extraordinary temperament, qualities, bloodline and the death of her mother (which was the breeder's best female and a devastating lost for them), and a new addition of an "amazing" male - we were approached while picking her up after bordering her. At that time I immediately said "no way"! At that time I didn't understand bloodline, pedigree, etc. Nothing else has been discussed with the breeder, no details, no contracts. In my posts I never commented on whether or not Emma was a show dog or not. I never commented on the reputable background of the breeder as well.
Emma is not my "pet", she is member of my family, apart of our home. Included in every life decision we make.
Now Emma is 5 yrs old...the conversation was becoming more frequent with just my husband and I; since death is a HUGE possibility per all these posts our minds are made up, never.
You all have scared the living day lights out of me, and to be very honest put a negative tone on this forum where as I won't be returning; too much aggression, hostility, judgement and all without knowing people at all or facts...never assume. You have assume way too much in all your posts, it is such a terrible thing to do.
Emma would have been an amazing momma, but in a sense she already is :)

Thank you,
Jen


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I don't think anyone has assumed anything-- all anyone did was ask questions to clarify and give you better guidance. In reading all the responses, none were even remotely hostile towards you... and most were from very experienced breeders. Nothing was said to "scare" you- only educate, which is what you asked for.... very few people know the "dark side" of breeding, and that is NOT a negative thing as an owner. You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders regarding this matter and obviously love your wonderful girl very much. She sounds amazing :)-- I hope you guys are able to make another purchase of a related pup!
 

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Jen

I don't think you should leave over what you perceive as negativity.....forums have a personality and character....read some of the rescue threads, the other threads of people wanting to breed a pet....the many many many threads from people with problem dogs and puppies....you will start to get a sense of the problems in the breed in the US due to unknowledgeable breeding.

If you had initially stated...."my dogs pedigree is <<<>>> and her breeder recently lost her dam, and has asked that I let her do a breeding as she has no daughters of that female....what type of arrangement is fair. What should the breeder do with my girl prior to breeding" you would have gotten a totally different response from most everyone - albeit with the cautionary statements regarding health risks at five years old. You got the responses you got because that information was not given....and the assumption of the board is based on the typical request for info for similar situations.

I tried to go middle of the road...informative about definitions, having to make assumptions based on the information provided and not provided....you filled in blanks, and I would say that there were steps to take before doing the breeding, and that you should go into it with more planning if you really wanted to do it....

Personally - I have bred an older female - for the continuation of my lines....it was with a great deal of concern, but it went fine...and I bred her a second time....then spayed her...I own 3 daughters, but none live with me due to unfortunate circumstances (bad car wreck) and 2 sons, one who just came to live with me...so I understand the breeders desire to get back something from the family of her lost female.

Lee
 

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Sorry you're upset. This forum does tend to err on the side of assuming someone doesn't know what they are talking about (not sure if that's a good thing or bad). I would not say death is a "huge" possibility, but there are always risks and many of these risks are probably more likely (but still painful and stressful) than death so all things need to be taken into consideration. Personally I think your breeder is asking a lot (too much) of you and your dog to go forward with this. I'm not making any assumptions about the quality of the dog or the pedigree. If I had a female dog that I felt was breedworthy, I would not breed the arrangement described in this thread. JMHO
 

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Please note though, aggression is never a good approach, no matter how passionate you are about a cause, issue etc. - what happens is you deflect ones attention off the real issue, guards come up and all that is present is hostility
Wow... I thought I was pretty polite. Believe me, you have not seen "aggressive" or "hostile" yet. If you think the replies you've gotten are bad, you haven't been posting on dog forums very long!

I notice a lot of new posters come here with a question, and when they don't like the answers they get, they assume that the forum is being "aggressive" or "hostile" or "negative". Why did you come to the forum, if not to get answers to your question?

I'm glad you decided not to breed your bitch, because especially at her age, the negatives far outweigh the positives. I don't know who her breeder is, and what her standards are, but because BYBs far outweigh the reputable sort, and you haven't told us who she is, I have to guess just by sheer statistics that she is not the type to require titles before breeding. If she were, she wouldn't be asking a 5 year old bitch to whelp a litter--it can take at least a year to title, by which time she will be a year older of course, which increases the risks involved in pregnancy and whelping.

Because of the risk of pyometra, which is deadly, I would spay her right now if she were mine. I've seen too many older intact bitches die of pyo.

Everybody here loves their dog and thinks the world of them. I have a VERY well bred, obedience titled bitch myself, her litter sister is multi-titled and has produced many multi-titled offspring. My girl has outstanding health and temperament, she is "amazing" in every way, but never for a moment did I think about breeding her. Just because you love your dog doesn't mean she needs to be bred. There are too many people breeding dogs already. I leave breeding to the true experts, meaning reputable, responsible, ethical breeders... which are maybe 1% or less of the people who actually breed dogs.
 

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I understand that you made up a decision already.

5 years old is not too late to breed, but it is on the hairy edge of having a first litter out of a female.

Losing a bitch is always a possibility, and with age, it may be slightly higher, not sure, but there are not that many females that die in the whelping process.

If you trust your breeder, than talk with them, and make the decision with them.

If the breeder is paying for pre-breeding testing, and taking the bitch in to take care of all the whelping and raising of the puppies, and the breeder is covering all the expenses, finding homes, etc. Then I do not think that your getting a puppy out of it, and the breeder getting the rest is that bad of a deal, personally.

And if her reason for wanting a litter is to keep the lines, that makes sense.

I really don't think it would make you a breeder in this circumstance as, although you own the bitch, but the bitch's breeder is making all the relative decisions, boarding the bitch, and raising the litter.

Whatever you choose to do, good luck to you.

Oh and as for Lee's figures:

Let's say your five year old bitch has a litter of 3 puppies, and required a C-section. You get one, the breeder gets one, and the third puppy is sold for $1000. The C-section costed $1500, and the progesterone testing and x-rays, and pre-breeding screening costed $500.

I guess that would make it pretty much a wash.

If the bitch only has one (by c-section), the breeder is out a bundle.

Let's hope that if you do go through with this, there are no complications, and your breeder actually realizes a profit -- smaller litters are often more problematic, as the individual puppies can be much larger. You would have gained a puppy, and your bitch will most likely have zero ill effects.
 

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You all have scared the living day lights out of me, and to be very honest put a negative tone on this forum where as I won't be returning; too much aggression, hostility, judgement and all without knowing people at all or facts...never assume. You have assume way too much in all your posts, it is such a terrible thing to do.
If you can try not to take the comments so personally and stop being defensive I think you'll find that the general tone isn't actually aggressive or hostile, and I really don't see any assumptions being made either. People can only respond to the information you've provided, and since you haven't mentioned the breeder or posted Emma's pedigree they don't really have any choice but to speculate as to whether this is a conscientious breeder and if Emma is a good candidate for breeding, or not. If you don't want people to speculate, then you have the choice of providing more information so everyone has all the facts.
 
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