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Discussion Starter #1
Hello there fellow pack members

The vet wanted to give my pup updates on shots...

one being bordetella,
the other two i can't recall the name but it was in regards to kidney and liver support, to avoid issues in his later age.


I instantly hesitated and insisted they do NOT go through with these and decided to research...


Does my 13 month old, 60 pound pup need ANY of these shots?
 

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Bordatella is for kennel cough and is sometimes required for doggy day care or to board them in kennels. Otherwise I

don't give more than absolutely necessary.

What are the other two? What has your dog already been given?

Personally I think many vets want to over vaccinate simply for $$ revenue.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
So, as a preventative and for exams, we do the wellness plans at banfield... he just had an exam and checked for worms etc...

they said he was due for his bordatella and leptospirosis (i just called and checked)

We never board him, we've used rover and had him stay over at a nearby household that we've met the people and their dog...

I insist on not injecting him with pointless shots....
 

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So Lepto can be transferred to humans.


I would, at the very least, consider both of these shots. If this is just a house dog that doesn't go out into public with other dogs much, you could probably get away with not having the Bordetella shot done. I'm not very familiar with the conservative vaccination protocols some people use. I just recently learned about titers.


I opt for these since mine frequent parks, trials, and training spaces with other dogs. I'd rather be proactive than reactive.
 
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I vaccinated for bordatella when I had to board Beau a couple of years ago. I don’t bother otherwise.

Research the incidence of leptospirosis in your area. The vaccine is not great, and dogs can react pretty badly to it (Beau did). The 4-way version has a lower incidence of adverse reactions than the 2-way, but is still not terribly effective unless administered 4 times a year. See

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/leptospirosis-vaccine-side-effects/

for a discussion of the vaccine biased towards the cons. Given how sick Beau got, and the low incidence of lepto here in Arizona, I probably won’t vaccinate him against it again. If we lived where exposure was highly likely, I might reconsider.
 

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I sent you a PM with detailed questions and advice, but for anyone reading this:


The best-researched, evidence-based vaccine protocols are the AAHA Vaccination Guidelines (revised in 2017), available here:
https://www.aaha.org/guidelines/canine_vaccination_guidelines/practice_vaccination.aspx


Update info on what's behind the task for of experts who wrote the guidelines:
https://www.aaha.org/guidelines/canine_vaccination_guidelines.aspx


It distinguishes between "core" (required) and "non-core" (optional, life-style based suggestions). There's a "Lifestyle-Based Vaccine Calculator" with questions to help decide which "non-core" vaccines are recommended for your particular risk factors. Your local vet may add in advice based on your area's climate and outbreak incidence for non-core vaccines. Here's the calculator:
https://www.aaha.org/guidelines/canine_vaccination_guidelines/vaccine_calculator.aspx



There's so much lepto in my area that not doing it is asking for kidney failure -- the vets see a lot of it, and if you know enough dog people, you'll meet someone who lost a dog to it in this wet, flood-prone climate. Even if you don't normally do it, I would consider it in Southern or Mid-Atlantic states after bad hurricane seasons -- lepto and flood water go hand in hand. OTOH, I might skip it in the dry Southwest.
 

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By the way, if you want to be cautious about vaccine reactions, a good practice is simply to separate them by about 3 weeks. If you just did your DAPP for example, I would wait to do the lepto (if it's needed in your area). I do the same with rabies.



My vet doesn't charge me an extra exam fee to do this but YMMV. The reason he doesn't charge extra is that he loves it when clients want to do it -- it lowers reaction risk, and they see us more which is better for our dogs because visits are so "normal" and "not a big deal." He said the combo is routine only because most people want "one and done" visits" instead of having to run to the vet several times over a few months.
 

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Your vet should be reliable and trustworthy and you should feel confident and safe. If you don't trust your vet, find another one. And... I wouldn't recommend Banfield honestly...

Anyways, my boy who is around 14 months has just had his shots. We did rabies, DA2PP (distemper and parvo) and bordatella (kennel cough). Like some has said, bordatella is optional but I opted anyways because my dog goes to the dog park regularly and other public spaces. At the very least, do the DA2PP and rabies. Again, depending on where you live and your dog's lifestyle, he might need the other one.
 

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@McGloomy, I'm really sorry to say this, but, your vet did a great disservice to your dog.

"DA2PP" is a combination vaccine -- distemper, adenovirus-2, parainfluenza and parvovirus. That is a vaccination "Cocktail" of 4 viruse's/bacteria etc. in ONE shot! PLUS the Boretella? AND a RABIES vac????

Rabies should NEVER be given at the same time as any other vaccination?



@JLla84:
Vaccination Info:
Dr. Jean Dodds - Vaccine Researcher

Vaccination Protocol:
9 - 10 weeks of age

Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV
e.g. Merck Nobivac (Intervet Progard) Puppy DPV

14 – 15 weeks of age
Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV

18 weeks of age
Parvovirus only, MLV

Note: New research states that last puppy parvovirus vaccine should be at 18 weeks old.

20 weeks or older, if allowable by law
Rabies – give 3-4 weeks apart from other vaccines

1 year old
Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV
This is an optional booster or titer. If the client intends not to booster after this optional booster or intends to retest titers in another three years, this optional booster at puberty is wise.

1 year old
Rabies – give 3-4 weeks apart from other vaccines

Dogs should be tittered each year BEFORE a vaccination is given. If titer is sufficient for such as Parvo or Distemper, a vaccination should not be given.


Vaccines and Immune Disorders
https://drjeandoddspethealthresourc...378056/immune-disorders-vaccines#.Wqz5BJch2K_


Vets On Vaccines: Vets On Vaccines - Dogs Naturally Magazine
Leptospirosis Vaccines adverse reaction, Dr. Jordan DVM

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/dog-allergies-a-man-made-problem/
Frequently Asked Questions about Titers and Vaccination Protocol by Dr. Dodds
Puppy and Kitten Vaccinations: Timing is critical

Rabies: The Science & the Current Law
Vaccines: When too much of a good thing turns bad
Vaccines: When too much of a good thing turns bad (Part 2)
Avoid Unnecessary Vaccines with Titer Tests (Part 3)

Response: Immune-Mediated Thrombocytopenia Report and Article
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: Is the puppy’s severe physical reaction due to a routine vaccine?
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: What should I do to protect my adult dogs during a parvovirus outbreak?
To Vaccinate or Not to Vaccinate for Infectious Canine Hepatitis?
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: I had a dog who had a bad reaction to the rabies vaccine and now I am concerned about giving it to my other dogs. What should I do?
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: Kennel Cough Complex Vaccines
Yes or No to Snake Vaccines?
Canine Influenza H3N8 Article - Dr. Dodds’ Additions
Clinical Approaches to Managing and Treating Adverse Vaccine Reactions
Dr. Schultz on Lyme Vaccine
Dr. Schultz Update on Leptospirosis Vaccines (2012)
More on Vaccine Titer Testing
Q&A with Dr. Dodds: Newborns and immunity from mothers
Mercury-Induced Inflammation: Yet Another Example of ASIA Syndrome
Canine Non-Core Vaccines
Snapshot of Leptospirosis Strains and Vaccines
Puppy Vaccination Schedule and Socialization: Can they go together?
Kennel Cough Complex: A complicated phrase for the canine common cold
A Pilot Study: Dose Vaccines for Small Dogs
More on Vaccinations & Small Dog Vaccine Study
Canine Influenza H3N2 Outbreak
Immune Disorders and Vaccines
Know Your Bordetella Vaccine

Dr. Patricia Jordan’s book: Mark of the Beast: Hidden in Plain Sight - This book is essential reading for pet owners, animal lovers and everyone seeking to know the truth about vaccine issues. The book title, Mark of the Beast, sums up the author's views on the medical practice of vaccination. Dr Patricia Jordan is a highly qualified veterinary surgeon with more than 24 years experience. Her observations and conclusions are based upon scientific evidence as opposed to the propaganda and junk science disseminated by pharmaceutical companies in their ever increasing need to maximize profits. Dr Jordan cites research studies showing that annual vaccinations are totally unnecessary and especially in respect of rabies where over vaccination is causing genetic changes and violent behavior in animals including horses. Dr. Patricia Jordan says: vaccination is the induction into a cycle of disease and disease management that is in every way a violation of the AVMA 1969 Veterinary Oath, in every way including public health and animal welfare

Other articles by Dr. Jordan
Cancer in our pet population, why is it on the rise?

Vaccinations and How They Disrupt the Immune System
5th Annual Joint American Homeopathic Conference - Poster Session 2010
Leptospirosis Vaccines Adverse Reaction
How vaccines dysregulate the immune system and impact genetic control over disease expression

Canine NON-Core Vaccines: Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | Search results for: core vaccines
"Dr. Dodds considers infectious canine hepatitis (adenovirus-1), canine adenovirus-2, bordetella, canine influenza, canine coronavirus, leptospirosis, and Lyme regional and situational. Please research the prevalence in your area, and discuss it with your veterinarian."

The Purdue Vaccination Studies and Auto-antibodies by Catherine O’Driscoll on April 26, 2011 The Purdue Vaccination Studies and Auto-antibodies - Dogs Naturally Magazine
Taking The Risk Out Of Puppy Shots by Dogs Naturally on July 12, 2011 Taking The Risk Out Of Puppy Shots - Dogs Naturally Magazine
Protecting Your Puppy From Disease: Protecting Your Puppy From Disease - Dogs Naturally Magazine

There is also a 4 part video series on vaccinations by Dr. Ron Schultz and Dr. Karen Becker at www.mercolahealtypets.com

Dr. Ron Schultz's (Vaccine Research) study results:
Minimum Duration of Immunity for Canine Vaccines:
Distemper- 7 years by challenge/15 years by serology
Parvovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology
Adenovirus – 7 years by challenge/ 9 years by serology
Canine rabies – 3 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology
Dr. Schultz concludes: “Vaccines for diseases like distemper and canine parvovirus, once administered to adult animals, provide lifetime immunity.” “Are we vaccinating too much?” JAVMA, No. 4, August 15, 1995, pg. 421.
Lifelong Immunity - Why Vets Are Pushing Back - Dogs Naturally Magazine

https://market.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/products/anti-vaccinosis

For Dr. Dodds’ position on various canine vaccines, please refer to the following posts:
Frequently Asked Questions about Titers and Vaccination Protocol
Dr. Ron Schultz on Lyme Vaccine
Dr. Ron Schultz on Leptospirosis Vaccines
Kennel Cough Complex Vaccines
Infectious Canine Hepatitis
Canine Influenza (H3N8)
Vaccinations: A Global Perspective

Other articles that may be of interest:
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/vets-on-vaccines/
http://www.dogs4dogs.com/blog/2011/12/17/why-vets-dont-recognize-vaccine-reactions/#more-1346


Our dogs were given ONE Distemper and ONE Parvo in their entire lifetime (9 years old and 12 years old), and never had another one. They are also Titered every year to make sure that they're levels were sufficient. If they ever showed up to low, I would get them another one.


As Beau's Mom said.....RESEARCH Lepto in your area before giving this vaccination.



Moms :)
 

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@momsto2GSDs hmmmm... I live in LA and that's about how the vet/humane society does it here in my area...

It's fine. lol separate out the combo vaccs from the Rabies and Lyme and Lepto. It's common practice. Moms showed lots of article, but none that are from peer reviewed medical journals. Dogs Naturally is not a reputable source of medical information. And while Dr Dodds is very vocal, you will notice she takes up most of those articles and most medical professionals disagree to an extent with her.

I don't do Bordetella unless I plan on boarding. I do vaccinate for Lyme and Lepto because they are prevalent in my area and I hike a lot and I work fir a vet, so I come in contact with sick dogs.

I have seen dogs die from Lepto and Lyme and Parvo and distemper. It's horrible and preventable. I do follow the AAHA guidelines on vaccine schedules. And then once they are 7-8 they only get vaccinated for Rabies and Lyme and Lepto. I discontinue all the viral vaccines.
 
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The 123 peer-reviewed journal articles that were the basis for the AAHA task force recommendations are here:
https://www.aaha.org/guidelines/canine_vaccination_guidelines/references.aspx


DA2PP combos are totally routine in my experience -- I've known every shelter dog to be vaxed with it once on intake and again in about 3 weeks. I don't know any private-practice vet that separates those components either. I know lots of vets that are happy to separate the DA2PP-combo from Lepto-4 or Rabies upon request, but the DA2PP components are routinely given together. I would not suggest any vet is giving bad advice or treating a client poorly by doing that routine vaccine.
 

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I have not had a dog vaccinated for bordatella in recent memory. I also refuse rabies vaccines where I currently live, last case of rabies was over 30 years ago. I would opt out of the distemper vaccine but I can't.
Do your research, lepto is uncommon here but I hike with Shadow and since it's pretty easily spread I vaccinate for it.
Bordatella is a vaccine that will be demanded if you board your dog or enroll in daycare, but of all the dogs I have had I have seen two cases and both dogs shrugged it off in a few days with no meds.
With my last several dogs they received the puppy series at around 8,12 and 16 weeks plus at one year. That's it.
If you live in a place where rabies vacs are required by law, do it as late as you can.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Brain overload
 

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Very respectfully GSDSAR……Dr. Dodds life work has been vaccination research. Personally, I take into account what she has experienced, witnessed and most importantly…...researched over the past 40 or more years.

Practicing veterinarian’s do not have “peer reviewed research”, but how can one totally ignore or even discount the many combined years of veterinarians seeing adverse reactions from vaccinations in their practices? (and speaking out publicly in articles/videos/books) Anything from lethargy to hot spots to cancer is possible from vaccination. You just don’t know if it could be your dog that has a reaction immediately or weeks, months or even years, down the road? The immune system is very complex. An overwhelmed immune system can be devastating.

Quote - Dr. Dodds: “In veterinary medicine, evidence implicating vaccines in triggering immune-mediated and other chronic disorders is compelling.”

For me, I liken it to walking into Walgreens and getting a combo MMR shot (measles, mumps, rubella), a flu shot, a pneumonia shot, a shingles shot, and a hepatitis shot all at the same time!
Would I do that to my immune system? No. So, I won’t do it to my puppy or dog.
 

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NO,NO,NO,NO! Your 13 month old pup DOES not NEED these vaccines. Some, actually many Vets, push vaccines. Obviously most of them mean well but it is not in your dogs best interest in my opinion. You have to weigh the chances of being exposed to these things vs the harm potentially caused by the vaccine. I have been raising dogs and cats and horses for over 40 years and have come to the conclusion that we over vaccinate all of our companion animals and horses. I only do core vaccines and only for the first year or two. After that it is rabies only by law. PERIOD. If your vet does not take no for an answer, find a new vet. I just had to go around with the receptionist at my vet's office the other day about this very subject. I just clearly told her NO, I will not give my puppy any more vaccines. He's 7 months old and was there for his rabies vaccine. He had a combo series from the breeder at 6 weeks. Then I kept him at home away from disease until I could give parvo and distemper again (2 weeks apart from each other) after he was 20 weeks old when the mother's milk immunity was gone. The ONLY reason they keep giving puppy series vaccines over and is over is because they aren't sure when the mother's milk immunity will be gone. By 20 weeks it's safe to assume the vaccines are effective.
 

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I titered at 1 year. found my male had ZERO immunity to distemper. It looked like he had never been vaccinated. Vaccinated with the 4 in 1. Retitered. Good to go.

At the very least, I advise titering for parvo/distemper. Discuss with your vet whether Lepto is prevalent in your area or in the area you travel with your dog. If you don't board then no reason to do bordetella
 

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My dogs are about as high risk as it gets for literally everything. It sucks. We live on a wooded mountain loaded with ticks and we hike all the time. Lyme. The dogs play in the creek and pond and drink from. Lepto. I board dogs. Everything catchy. I compete with dogs. Everything catchy X2. I board other competition dogs who compete on whole different and bigger circuits than mine do. Everything catchy X10

I also titered a dog who by all rights really should have had lifetime immunity to Distemper and she had almost nothing. I have a dog who has had a vaccine reaction. So...I do my best to give them as much protection with the least risk. The only one I haven't done is the dog flu vax and only because my vet doesn't have it and I just haven't gotten around to taking them to the vet I hate to get it.

I do Lyme and Lepto alone and separate from everything else. I do Lepto first thing in the spring so they have the most coverage when there isn't snow cover/frozen ground because it seems like that would be a higher risk time. I titer for Distemper/Parvo...one needed it and the other didn't. It's expensive and time consuming to do what I am doing but I can swing it and I think it is better for them, so that's what I'm doing for now.
 
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