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Discussion Starter #1
What traits (nerves, drive, aggression) did Lord pass on?

I know he's produced some notable dogs w/a couple of his litters really standing out over others..

Sara vom Bramberg and Kenja vom Klövensteener Forst..

Where there any other's?
 

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I cannot comment directly on Lord, though I do know some working SAR dogs that have him in their pedigree.

An interesting factoid - his name means lord of the railroad wye
A wye is a place where three tracks come together and a triangle is formed for allowing the trains to change direction.

They are somewhat common in the US as much of our railroad system is single rail where trains run both directions, but much of Europe is double rail with dedicated directional lines and they are a less common occurrence.
 

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Tessa is a decendent via her sire - Xento von Hena-C and his sire SG Alk von Osterberg Quell...
 

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Manto Kahlenbach is probably the most notable Lord son in Germany right now. He is being used alot on "sportier" litters.

You are goign to get alot of mixed reviews on Lord dogs. Alk for one. He was bred to so many females that did not cross well with him. I have talked to/heard lots from people who saw/knew Alk - including his owner Greg, and a German judge who knew him, and Baldaur Kranz. I am not going to debate his quality or his production here, as I know he is often "dissed".

Besides active social aggression, there is an independant or maybe
stubbornness associated with Lord. My Kyra is 2-5,5 on Lord, and carries Nessel 2x, with Pirol in that mix. Gary H. told me that most people could not put a Schh1 on a dog with that much Lord let alone a Schh3 - that was after she stopped and posed for hte photographer on a BIG brain fart at the MER a couple of years ago <VBS>.....Kyra has the independant thing down for sure. Not alot of toy drive (also really screwed up in her initial training as a pup!), she has extreme "real" prey, including herding instinct and LOL a penchent for car tires!

The up side is that the Lord with what ever else worked so well with Kyra gave me super super super athletic ability, strong environmental and social nerves. A lot of civil aggression, but must be elicited, otherwise schutzhund was a game to her. Her progeny are more "up" and will play with a toy/ball, and are both working police dogs (Vermont State Police - certified patrol/narcotics/SAR) and sport dogs - albeit with a serious side. They have more suspicion than Kyra, and along with the "real" prey, they all have good drive for toy/prey in training. Csabre was evaluated as a pup by Shelley Fritzke, a board member, as having very good herding instinct as well.

What I see in my dogs heavy on Lord is consistant with what I have been told by several Europeans as to why Lord is being used there today.

Lee
 

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That's interesting that you bring up the civil drive - Tessa has a very strong civil drive as well. I have worked with Kriby Hill and he picked up on it immediately. She is also very independent and is very serious - but has a really high ball/prey drive and a lot of focus. She is on the large size for a bitch - 27 at the shoulder and 66lbs at 13 months.
 

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Originally Posted By: Vandal

Just a hunch but I think the Lord dog was a good tracker.
No doubt!

He also seemed to produce such quite consistently. I knew Alk well and have seen dozens of offspring from him out of a variety of bitches, and while I'll keep my opinions on the overall working ability of those progeny to myself, tracking ability has never been an issue. Almost all I've seen have been superb trackers, either sport style or trailing style. Our Lord granddaughter through Fiasko Gebrüder Grimm, Ira, is also a fantastic tracking dog and has continued to pass that on in her progeny.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I've heard the same about his tracking..

What is an FH3?
 

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I will concur on the tracking ability - insane desire to track...discipline on the track....ahhhh - we will NOT go there! LOL LOL LOL Mea culpa on the scores on mine! Not the dogs for sure...Cairo, the Vermont State Police K9 from Kyra's Xito litter, has never-ending hunt and search, and last November, found lost hikers in a little under an hour in neighboring state of New Hampshire after regular SAR foot searchers looked foe 2 days (news article from memory....!). I am amazed by the tracking/hunt drive/ability of Kyra and Csabre....

And yes, Fiasko is another dog used in Germany alot from Lord!

Lee
 

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Discussion Starter #11
We know which of his sons went on to being producers of working dogs- what about is daughters...

Which ones would be considered producers?
 

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My dog is linebred 4-5 on Lord. I'm still very new to this, so I think I wrote that right (I know the numbers are correct


He's an active police dog and I couldn't ask for any more as a street dog. He definitely has that civil side....very focused on people. I think he would do great in Schutzhund (I've been involved in SchH w/ another dog, so I'm familiar with it), but is better suited for the street work due to the civil part. He also works very well independently. In fact, I haven't seen many dogs work so independent like he does during scenarios. He will just continue to search until he finds the decoy/suspect.

He does very well in bitework and with his drive up for that, takes fairly hard corrections. However, in obedience, he is what I would consider a somewhat soft dog. He's very sensitive to corrections from me during obedience. If they come from someone else, different story - he'd go up the leash after them.

He wasn't real crazy about toys initially (unless they were coming from a decoy) and it has taken me a while to find some high value ones. He'd still rather focus on a person, but we have a good thing going right now with toys in obedience training.....and it's still a work in progress


He does very well at tracking, although he's not what I would see as a natural love-to-track sort of dog. He'd much rather be doing an area search or building search.

As for structure, he still has a little filling out to do probably, but he's built like a tank. Very powerful, although not too large.

He's through Jenny v. Patscherkofel on the sire's side and Fiasko von Gebruder Grimm on the dam's side.
 

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I owned an Alk daughter and a son out of a brother of Fiasko v Gerbruder -Grim. I also won't go into Alk but I have found that Lord progeny have incredible tracking ability and good hip statistics with DDR dogs. Did not like his lack of black mask which he will introduce into your line,but it does not affect working ability.He mixed well with some West lines and is in the pedigree of many very good dogs of the nineties. Usually on the motherline side when mixed with West lines.Not the best of pigment and could produce nerviness, but some of these features definitely came down from his sire Jeff von Flamings Sand. Was not a dominant dog in producing strong temperament but COULD produce strong temperament when mixed with strong bitches.JMO
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Since Lord produced nice tracking ability and a civil side, suspicion in his progeny, were they better suited for schH or police work or SAR..

Is that a legitimate question?
 

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I believe police work is a niche you will find them in. Sue Coppala and Mary ? (eek, forgot her last name) in Ijamsville MD used a 3/4ish sister to my Kyra in their program and produced PSD from her. Their stud Yago, (who is behind both Mattie and Kyra) who lived to be 13, was linebred on Lord, a police dog, sire and grandsire of police dogs. This is one breeder, actually a pair of K9 police officers, who did not title their dogs in schutzhund, but consistantly produced police and SAR dogs from their breeding stock. Kyra's dam was bred by them, and Kyra has carried on the tradition by producing Cairo, who is a police dog for the Vermont State Police. Police officers/K9 trainers have tested both Kyra and my Csabre and I know they would be sucessful "on the street", as would Cito according to his trainers right from the beginning.

In fact, sport work is not judged conducively to produce some of the qualities used and sought for police work. A dog who is suspicious, who will lift his head off the artificial track loses points. I know a PO who is very experienced in K9 training and certification, and he has lost points with his street dog for this, but it *IS* the proper behavior for a "real" dog.

Lee
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Mary works in the county I live in.. And is highly regarded when it comes to working police dogs and as a trainer..

I've also seen/met some of their dogs.
 

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I definitely think my K9 is better suited for police work than sport. Then would come sport, then SAR. If he were ever bred, I would want to make sure that the pups went to police handlers or SchH experienced handlers.

I think the civil part of it is what convinces me most. And that it can be hard to find dogs to do police work. I think that when you have a dog that doesn't hesitate to look past equipment and has courage to go after a person who is not wearing a sleeve, it would be a loss for K9 work if that dog didn't go to the street. Those dogs should be working or producing pups that are working. And from being involved in SchH, I know there are a lot of people who believe that a dog trained in SchH on a sleeve, or even on a bitesuit, would apprehend someone who wasn't wearing a sleeve. However, not all dogs that go through police training (even the ones that do great on a bite suit, sleeve, hidden sleeve) can make that transition to the street....and that's exactly what they've been trained to do (on a 24-7 several month long basis). It's a whole different picture for a dog. And you definitely have to take advantage of it and those lines when you have them and they've been proven.....
 

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My Alk grandson was a born tracker like his father. From the first time we put a track down, he was a natural.
PaulH
 

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I met a guy that owned a male Lord sired out of Neuman Jim littermate. Vey serious dog, sick blocky head and excellent with his children. He didn't do sport, but did protection work. I almost got the dog, but my wife wasn't a fan.....he let out a very low growl as she walked past him the first time we met him.
 

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My SAR dog has lord in his pedigree and theres nothing and i mean nothing you can hide from him. He is all about the nose. He is the smarted dog i've ever owned.
 
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