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OK... As many know of you know. I like to do two things in keeping with my KISS philosophy. In that regard, SA and the usual assortment of drug therapy, essential oils, calming music and long couch sections has always got on my last nerve!

It is a great way for a whole lot of people, who can't actually help... to make a good living by not really doing anything useful! But it's not really of much value to such dogs and their owners!

If people have a dog that is acting like a "tool" on leash, they "know" what to do "correct your Dog!" But if they have a dog that is "suffering from "anxiety separation" and that dog also "flips" out in a crate?? They are at a loss as to what to do??

The last straw for me was the hundredth time I saw the get a "stronger crate solution??"

I suppose that does work, but it falls into my "yeah that's kinda lame category" it's a solution not an answer! What do the "Pro's" do??

They have to see this all the freaking time, so "what do the Pro's do???"

Found it..."Correct the dog" crate train the dog! If the dog goes nuts in the crate?? You can put a long line on him in the crate (don't leave it to him intended of course) and walk away if the dog "acts up correct him with the leash and say "NO!"

Or you can use an E-Collar also. I don't see any mention of it on Lou's site so I looked elsewhere and found it being used for this. Of Lou has an objection to its use for this, I'll defer to him.

And of course, there is also the "infamous Michal Ellis approach! For those in the Know! :)

So finally after a few years of seeing various long, detailed stories of dogs and there owners in pain I decide to get to work, doing what I do...look for answers, I would use!


Separation Anxiety? I?m not seeing it at my Place! – Solid K9 Training

Case Study- Why They Say it Wouldn’t Work and Why it Did |


How to Train a Dog With an Electric Collar |

And of course, "Sit on the Dog":

Wheres my sanity: Sit on the Dog, aka: The long down

Energy - it's all about confid-tude

"The Place Command" is in Jeff's Gellman's link.


And finally for a well let's say a more Homie like explanation we have Peter Caine! A poster a while ago had one of his "profanity-fueled rants" on Dog Parks!

I was a bit... uh "stunned" but I knew of him now and I started watching his stuff and it turns out I kinda view the use of treats in training pretty much the same as he does! So if you want to hear the info I posted with a more, uh direct and profanity filled approach just do a search on youtube:


Separation anxiety in Dogs : Part 1......Peter Caine Dog training

But brace yourself because that guy is true Hard Core "homie" style and as you know:

MG]http://i58.tinypic.com/n39eyo.jpg[/IMG]

I only provide information...I got no dog in this fight! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Found it..."Correct the dog" crate train the dog! If the dog goes nuts in the crate?? You can put a long line on him in the crate (don't leave it to him "unattended" of course) and walk away if the dog "acts up correct him with the leash and say "NO!"

Oops I meant unattended don't do many threads so not sure how to edit them?? :)
 

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In severe cases Ive dealt with Ive noticed a few
trends. They have had practice at crate escaping and become destructive to the point they will self mutilate to get to people. They tend to not socialize well with other dogs. If you put them in a group they will ignore every other dog and try to hang around a person and when not allowed to do that they go find a quiet spot and lay down.

They seek human attention hardcore. Will bark to get pet and nudge hands to get pet. Lots of attention seeking behaviors that are annoying. Their families that create it tend to shower them with constant affection and attention then withdraw it suddenly.

Many dogs that have this issue in order to prevent flare ups have to be treated more matter of factly and coldly to show improvement. There is a case here at the kennel the dog has been here for months and has become a permanent resident because if they take the dog back the dog will relapse. Shes missing a k9 from breaking crates and rooms to try to escape when left alone. Shes stopped the behavior here. I usually ignore her in the yards. Here and there I pet her but only on my terms and if she tries to seek attention i punish it or ignore her.

Its the hardest behavior to resolve for a client. They will not do it here then go home and the client has to deal with t according to a specific set of instructions to kill the behavior for good but it requires time and attention most people just dont have. I hate these cases. Weve gotten really good at them but i hate them with a passion.

What someone really needs to invent is a crate that static shocks a dog for attempting to screw with it, that is escape proof. Then stick a bark collar on the dog so it cant bark its head off. Then maybe an app that allows you to monitor the dog with some sort of reciever to the e collar where you can be miles away and correct the dog and tell it to be quiet baby monitor style.
 

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Ive also heard of someone fixing this by getting the dog drunk in the crate. Dog just learned to like the crate cause thats where it goes to get drunk. Havent tried this but secretly always wanted to.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Ive also heard of someone fixing this by getting the dog drunk in the crate. Dog just learned to like the crate cause that's where it goes to get drunk. Haven't tried this but secretly always wanted to.
Ok...that one is a bit much! :p

Personally I lean toward the Michale Ellis approach myself, don't know maybe he had an off day?? Maybe that was the 10 th dog that day something and he just said "screw this....over you go!" :eek:

:D

KMODT in action! The dog "chooses" to make "good" choices!

Dog..."decides" that perhaps it's in "my best inerest" to not act a fool in here?? If I chose to behave...nothing "bad" happens???

"Pet people" and I'm a member need to learn when its time to switch out of "Fur Baby" mode!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
In severe cases Ive dealt with Ive noticed a few
trends. They have had practice at crate escaping and become destructive to the point they will self mutilate to get to people. They tend to not socialize well with other dogs. If you put them in a group they will ignore every other dog and try to hang around a person and when not allowed to do that they go find a quiet spot and lay down.

They seek human attention hardcore. Will bark to get pet and nudge hands to get pet. Lots of attention seeking behaviors that are annoying. Their families that create it tend to shower them with constant affection and attention then withdraw it suddenly.

Many dogs that have this issue in order to prevent flare ups have to be treated more matter of factly and coldly to show improvement. There is a case here at the kennel the dog has been here for months and has become a permanent resident because if they take the dog back the dog will relapse. Shes missing a k9 from breaking crates and rooms to try to escape when left alone. Shes stopped the behavior here. I usually ignore her in the yards. Here and there I pet her but only on my terms and if she tries to seek attention i punish it or ignore her.

Its the hardest behavior to resolve for a client. They will not do it here then go home and the client has to deal with t according to a specific set of instructions to kill the behavior for good but it requires time and attention most people just dont have. I hate these cases. Weve gotten really good at them but i hate them with a passion.

What someone really needs to invent is a crate that static shocks a dog for attempting to screw with it, that is escape proof. Then stick a bark collar on the dog so it cant bark its head off. Then maybe an app that allows you to monitor the dog with some sort of receiver to the e-collar where you can be miles away and correct the dog and tell it to be quiet baby monitor style.
Oh I just saw this while working on the above! But the dogs you have to keep?? "Fur Baby" syndrome in action!

I understand the greater point you make in that example, it still takes management! :)

But I like to break it down for "folks" and with a lot of folks that are trying to deal with SA, they get thrown for a loop at step one! Crate train your dog!

"Well I try and crate my dog and he freaks out!!???" And off the rails they go, on an endless track of crap solutions! Their dogs "beat" them at step one! Kinda like:


:p

And yep I understand that I give examples that tend to "humanize" dogs! And I'm pretty sure "Pro's" cringe at that??

But I try and bring "understanding" from professionals such as yourself to a larger audience! And I have a pretty good understand of how "we" think!

Pretty sure you have seen me "constantly" deliver your message of "training calmness" into a dog being delivered?? I thank you for that!

I remember in one post you said you give your dogs treats for doing "nothing???"

I asked about it and I think that is where you said they get a "reward for doing "nothing!!" That had actually been something I had been doing with Rocky but I had no idea I was doing anything???

So a "light came on" and I deliver that message all the time! On Boxerforum I actually got a PM from a member asking about "Sit on the Dog???" I was both stunned and impressed! If the true "fur baby" crowd gets it?? My "method of translation" seems to work!

So thank you for that! :)

I also want to thank you for taking the time to deal with "us!" You, and Lou are the only one that seem to be willing to wade "directly" into "tool" land" ie open forums! Everybody is an "expert!":)

On Boxerforum there are apparently one or two "Pro's" there and I get flack from them for trying to help people??? Not really sure why they bother to be there?? And ironically enough I tend to tick, them off??

A direct quote from one of them is "your wasting your time!"

But back on point! Although I would have no problem with the ME approach, myself! Perhaps a "slower" but still effective approach would be to start to "feed" the dog in the crate??

And as it happens the SA think, Sean O'Shea, address this very topic in this episode!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGOz3PV7oLY

Maybe twenty minutes in??

And the remote viewing stuff?? Good idea most likely "baby cam" stuff would cover that?? Because yeah, if people aren't home they have no idea what the dog is actually doing??
 

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Then maybe an app that allows you to monitor the dog with some sort of reciever to the e collar where you can be miles away and correct the dog and tell it to be quiet baby monitor style.
I'd imagine that you'd have a heck of a time making timely corrections from a remote location simply due to the latency of the video signal going to you, and your response going back. Two-three second delay and the correction's effect is lost.

As for monitoring the dog remotely, just pick up any $50 IP Camera on Amazon - most (if not all) have smartphone apps that will stream live video to you, and some allow for voice transmission back (so you can speak to the dog). A few of my friends have these to keep an eye on their dogs when the dogs are crated and they're away from home.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I'd imagine that you'd have a heck of a time making timely corrections from a remote location simply due to the latency of the video signal going to you, and your response going back. Two-three second delay and the correction's effect is lost.
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I understand the point your making. But I tend to think it is "irrelevant!"

I have "zero" first hand experience with this! But all the tales of "crate freak out" I have read tend to lead "me" to belive that it is "non-timing" critical siuation??" The dog does not go in the crate and think "I'm going to wait 10 maybe 15 minuets and then yeah boy, it's freak out city!!"

It's most likely an almost "instanance" respone to being put in the crate and the owner dissappearing?? The dog flips out and "will not stop "without" some type of "correction!" This "freak out" transfers to the owners of such dogs and they tend to "belive" corrections are not a "viable option??" So the "dog freaking" transfers to the owners "freaking!!" And on the band wagon of the search for useless crap they go!

Seems pretty cut and dry for me, but hey "I" am not a pro! I just call it like I see it! :)
 

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I understand the point your making. But I tend to think it is "irrelevant!"

I have "zero" first hand experience with this! But all the tales of "crate freak out" I have read tend to lead "me" to belive that it is "non-timing" critical siuation??" The dog does not go in the crate and think "I'm going to wait 10 maybe 15 minuets and then yeah boy, it's freak out city!!"

It's most likely an almost "instanance" respone to being put in the crate and the owner dissappearing?? The dog flips out and "will not stop "without" some type of "correction!" This "freak out" transfers to the owners of such dogs and they tend to "belive" corrections are not a "viable option??" So the "dog freaking" transfers to the owners "freaking!!" And on the band wagon of the search for useless crap they go!

Seems pretty cut and dry for me, but hey "I" am not a pro! I just call it like I see it! :)
I guess it would depend on what kind of behaviour you're trying to correct.

If it's something constant/on-going, then sure, a delay won't be much of an issue since the dog will still be doing something bad. If it's a temporary/spontaneous issue, that's a different story.

Personally, I wouldn't want my dog in an e-collar, or anything else capable of giving corrections, without me being directly present, as there are too many possibilities of things going wrong.

I write software for a living and know first hand how it easy it is for some developer to make an assumption that is correct 99.999% of the time, but incorrect under edge-case conditions. I don't want to risk that software bug causing harm to the dog.

Plus, batteries (such as the ones in the collar) always carry the risk of exploding (plenty of documented smartphone explosions in recent years), and while that's also about as likely as winning the lottery, I'd still rather not risk it.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
I guess it would depend on what kind of behaviour you're trying to correct.

If it's something constant/on-going, then sure, a delay won't be much of an issue since the dog will still be doing something bad. If it's a temporary/spontaneous issue, that's a different story.

Personally, I wouldn't want my dog in an e-collar, or anything else capable of giving corrections, without me being directly present, as there are too many possibilities of things going wrong.

I write software for a living and know first hand how it easy it is for some developer to make an assumption that is correct 99.999% of the time, but incorrect under edge-case conditions. I don't want to risk that software bug causing harm to the dog.

Plus, batteries (such as the ones in the collar) always carry the risk of exploding (plenty of documented smartphone explosions in recent years), and while that's also about as likely as winning the lottery, I'd still rather not risk it.
Aww and there we are!

Unfortunately for you! I have a finely honed ability to spot "crap" a "skill" I learned as "Gunther" on "Boxerworld" a pretty locked down and closed in community! Not an environment that worked for "mavericks" such as myself! But yeah on here, I have no such restrictions!

Everything you are listing is "pretty" much irrelevant! Bottom line is SA and in the Crate the issue?? Flip the freaking crate over! ME "approach" problem solved! You can take that up with him! That is how I roll! I don't need a freaking E-Collar myself! :)

If you wanna bad mouth E-Collars take it up with Lou! How's that for "Crystal Clear" and "to the point!"



So...who's next and you best have your crap together because:


Just saying!
 

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I've been wanting to say this for a long time. Thanks!!! I appreciate you (plural) for having the patience, and taking the time, to say the same thing again and again and again, with different dog training issues/scenarios/behaviours. Please don't stop or give up on us humans. What you say works. German Shepherds are smart (though my first one was as dumb as a box of hammers). It just (usually) takes longer to train the human than the dog. Anyways, my sincerest thanks to you all.
 

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Geez Chip,chill!!Yurly was talking about using the e collar from a remote location(dog at home,owner at work),and things that could go wrong in that particular scenario.Nowhere did he criticize you or anyone.He was just sharing knowledge.
I used to have a dog with an unusual crate issue you might find interesting.He was so anxious that he would drool literally buckets!The bottom of the crate had standing water,his legs and stomach would be soaked.He was crated every day for about a year when I was away at work until he could be trusted free in the house.He didn't do it overnight when people were in the house,just when totally alone.Weird,huh?
 

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I'd imagine that you'd have a heck of a time making timely corrections from a remote location simply due to the latency of the video signal going to you, and your response going back. Two-three second delay and the correction's effect is lost.

As for monitoring the dog remotely, just pick up any $50 IP Camera on Amazon - most (if not all) have smartphone apps that will stream live video to you, and some allow for voice transmission back (so you can speak to the dog). A few of my friends have these to keep an eye on their dogs when the dogs are crated and they're away from home.

With something like e collar for crate behavior when it comes to freakout's for noise assuming you already have enough history of well timed corrections for noise in the crate that establish in the dogs mind just what it is being corrected for then you can have a 2-3 second delay in correction or even upwards of 5-10 and the dog will still have an understanding of why it was corrected. It is called latency and it was well documented in Pavlov's research. I am not advocating late corrections, but for something like this you can get away with it.

In any case, bark collars eliminate the need for other types of corrective collars for noise. If you had a crate that was getting them for attempting escapes then that would cover pretty much all the bases. An e collar with video camera would be good to stop whining behaviors the bark collar couldn't address.
 

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I've been wanting to say this for a long time. Thanks!!! I appreciate you (plural) for having the patience, and taking the time, to say the same thing again and again and again, with different dog training issues/scenarios/behaviours. Please don't stop or give up on us humans. What you say works. German Shepherds are smart (though my first one was as dumb as a box of hammers).
Not at all and thank you so much for that!

Most likely I have those "tools" at BoxerWorld to thank, for helping me "figure out" how to break through the "flack??" :)

As I've said all it takes is one "Red Zone" dog to show people the limits of "Click Treat and Praise" not that I ever did a lot of any of that but what I learned is that when a dog goes "over threshold" they can't hear you!

So I looked for solutions from people that work with dogs with, (as I tend to say...) "serious freaking "issues!" And see what they do and try and understand and then "translate for the "masses" as it were! :)

My particular take on things is that "some folks" aren't interested in helping "anyone!" They would much rather stand in the way, then consider that maybe perhaps possibly...there is another way to do this???

My "goals" are simple learn form the Pros's and pass it along! KISS! :)

It just (usually) takes longer to train the human than the dog. Anyways, my sincerest thanks to you all.
Hmmm just to this point! The tons of "folks that are "always" pounding on Cesar...if they actually take the time to "Stop, think, observe and listen" you will see that for most of his shows that "is" what he does!

But that is a topic for anothe thread! :)
 

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Geez Chip,chill!!Yurly was talking about using the e collar from a remote location(dog at home,owner at work),and things that could go wrong in that particular scenario.Nowhere did he criticize you or anyone.He was just sharing knowledge.


Message received! Sorry Yurly... Flashbacks to BoxerWorld and stuff. :eek:
 

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Chip - no problem.

With something like e collar for crate behavior when it comes to freakout's for noise assuming you already have enough history of well timed corrections for noise in the crate that establish in the dogs mind just what it is being corrected for then you can have a 2-3 second delay in correction or even upwards of 5-10 and the dog will still have an understanding of why it was corrected. It is called latency and it was well documented in Pavlov's research. I am not advocating late corrections, but for something like this you can get away with it.
Interesting. What does it take to build up enough history for the latency effect to apply? Are we talking countable repetitions, or an actual state of being (partially?) conditioned?
 

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Varies depending on the dog. It takes as many repetitions as it tales for a dog to determine the cause and effect. Could be as few as 3 or as many as 30 or maybe even more but usually somewhere in between. It happens fairly quick in crate because the dog doesnt do anything else in there that gets a correction other than noise or trying to break out and attempting breakout is fairly rare. So the dog can cognitively determine the late stim was because of noise because thats what the issue has been in the past.
 
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