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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
IF all dog come from wolves then the complete gentotype can be thought of as the colour white ie all colours mixed together, so a wolf has a white spectrum so to speak. we actually have only deleted genes that were not desired when humans invented breeds, there is no other position that is logical, not possible to add or mutate a gene that is not wolf. unless you cross species.

each breed in this analogy is just a different colour so to speak. the weak nerve fearful dog is closest to the wolf, should not then every breeding program retain a reactive fearful dog to jump start the breeeding program again and add some colours back to the pallette, cf breeding prey to prey to prey long term, as i stated selective breeding is necesarily deletion what long term damage to the breed by having such a narrow geno-type, it is unnatural (which all dogs are duh) but if the geno-type is narrow then destruction of the species usually looms closer and closer. most of our genes are junk genes as a result of evolution (sorry creationists, not so perefect after all) that junk is necessary.
 

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Couldn't sleep and came across your post X11. Think I will take a stab at it. I understand your concept but I have to disagree with you completely. I believe selective breeding is neither a subtraction nor an addition rather a re-mixing of the primary colors.

To make my position I will keep your analogy of “all inclusive genotype” of wolf as being the color white “presence of all color”. Therefore selective breeding of wolves by humans have deleted genes to arrive at the domesticated dog (let’s say color green).

The reason I disagree with your analogy is the very nature of DNA. I would define your color white as the DNA not the genes! DNA is made of four chemicals adenine (A), guanine (G), cytosine (C), and thymine (T). These four chemicals make up all complex living organisms. The DNA structure or helix is what differentiates the different organisms let’s say humans vs a turtle.

Changes to the Helix structure or genes (mutations) by genetic defect other environmental factors ( i.e. radiation and etc) can ADD, and DELETE changes to the genes to a gene pool. Therefore, since helix of DNA can change you can’t say that future progeny is just deletion of genes. Rather, the helix can be arranged for argumentative purpose infinitely thus adding genes and de-emphasizing other genes recessive.

For example when you say wolf there are 6 different species of wolves with many sub-species. If there was 1 common ancestor to the wolves would you say that the Himalayan wolf has deleted genes from the Gray wolf? It is quite possible that mutations and environment has emphasized, possibly added genes thus differentiating species? Thus genes are just one characteristic of heredity make-up of DNA.
 

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You must distinguish between colors of light and colors of pigment. In light, white is the presence of all colors. In pigments, white is the absence of all colors.
In light, black is the absence of all colors. In pigments, black is the presence of all colors.
 

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the weak nerve fearful dog is closest to the wolf...
What makes you think so? I would guess the exact opposite to be true, that through natural selection, the weakest are eliminated. And not that I'm an expert on wolves, but I can't imagine the breeding alphas attaining that status within the pack - not with weak nerves.
 

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I disagree, because in essence you ARE breeding genetic mutations to an extent. The bracycephalic muzzle of many breeds (bulldogs, pugs, etc) is a mutation of the skull. Many things also change for a dog physically when domestication occurs.

For example, black is not a natural coloration of the grey wolf (or so I have read, it has been YEARS and years so I would want to read up on it again). It was through domestication that black occured and it is believe that domesticated canines breeding back into the wild population caused black to become a color seen in wild wolves.

Read up on the russian farm fox project if genetics and domestication interests you. This experiment over 40 years breed the calmest fox kits to the calmest kits in a controlled environment, and it showed that a wild silver fox could be DOMESTICATED in 14 generations. Not tamed but actual domestication. As the foxes became domesticated physical and temperament changes were noted - odd coloration such as spotting and white points, curled tails, floppy ears, blazes and stars. They also began to bark which wild foxes do not do. I would easily argue that these changes are genetic mutations
 

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Discussion Starter #9
and what is the mechanism causing these mutations? given in my understanding a mutation is a mispairing of broken chemical bonds on the genes, eg radiation damage, so i am not inclined to go with that?

look at dogs n garbage piles in third world countries, even with geographic isolatio the dogs all end up looking kinda the same.

like nature is a magnet working against selective breeding bringing a dog back to the same primal form (which is not a wolf).
 

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Too much X-men, isn't it?

Sorry x11, but your theory is wrong from the very beginning, it would be impossible to explain why without going back to Mendel and 7th grade biology and I don't have that much time.

A couple of things that screeched too loudly.

Mutations are a natural part of genetics, you can read more about here to understand better: What is a gene mutation and how do mutations occur? - Genetics Home Reference

With the recent theories, dogs are not a human creation. Dogs created themselves because it was beneficial for them, not for us. Very later in their developing we learned how to use them in our advantage, so dogs ARE natural, what we have done with them on the last century... not that much.

I highly recommend you to read the first chapters of this book, The history from wolf to dog is nicely explained: Dog Sense
 

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I think wolves would be considered naturally suspicious rather than weak nerved and fearful but I'm no expert on wolves.
My best guess is that this is a reference to some shorter-term studies of domestication where it was shown that the "wild type" animals tended to be fearful and aggressive towards humans. This does not mean that weak-nerved dogs are closer the wild type, however. Fear of humans when held in captivity is probably not indicative of weak nerves in general but just lack of domestication.

x11; said:
and what is the mechanism causing these mutations? given in my understanding a mutation is a mispairing of broken chemical bonds on the genes, eg radiation damage, so i am not inclined to go with that?
During the recombination of chromosomes in the production of gametes there is also the potential for mutations as biological processes are not perfect. My understanding is that it is sometimes a spontaneous "error" in the RNA. The vast majority of the time, these mutations are either neutral or harmful rather than beneficial. However, with selective breeding you can speed up the process of mutation by allowing individuals with neutral or even harmful mutations to have a reproductive advantage. It is not always due to radiation damage.
 

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Read up on the russian farm fox project if genetics and domestication interests you. This experiment over 40 years breed the calmest fox kits to the calmest kits in a controlled environment, and it showed that a wild silver fox could be DOMESTICATED in 14 generations. Not tamed but actual domestication. As the foxes became domesticated physical and temperament changes were noted - odd coloration such as spotting and white points, curled tails, floppy ears, blazes and stars. They also began to bark which wild foxes do not do. I would easily argue that these changes are genetic mutations
If you have Netflix streaming you can also look up Dogs Decoded: Nova. In the last third of the show they show foxes from this experiment. It was really fascinating. Actually the whole show was fascinating as it showed some differences behavior-wise between dogs and wolves.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
With the recent theories, dogs are not a human creation. Dogs created themselves because it was beneficial for them, not for us. Very later in their developing we learned how to use them in our advantage, so dogs ARE natural, what we have done with them on the last century... not that much.
so the pit bull created itself by killing evry one of its own kind that it came into contact with because it was - "beneficial for them, not for us"

yes duh dogs are natural - they were not made in a test tube.

very few breeds were created in the last century unless you consider a breed has only existed when a standard was written which is technically correct i guess - the border collie certainly pre-dates its standard and i doubt developed pronounced herding skills all by itself which we later "just learned to use".

the concept that different breeds were created due to people just waiting for a spontaneous mutation to occurr that someone just took advantage of and created a new breed out of - that is more far fetched than X-men.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
i do appreciate the link and will watch/read it, i know this thread is a bit off base - i am just a learning about dogs junkie and never took biology in high school, always found physical science much easier to understand.

this thread has already paid off for me in the great leads people have put up, the rest is just the symptoms of chronic insomnia.
 

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Well now I think you're not wanting the consider the mutation possibility. in my mind there are two different categories of breeds. The first are the breeds with a working purpose. Form follows function so yes you are breeding dogs best suited for a specific job and getting a uniformed form over time. The other type is the pet dogs. Think lap dogs. Its more breeding after something you like (dog is born with short muzzle and you think its adorable so you keep breeding to obtain that short and shorter muzzle) instead of getting results that follow a function.

If it helps to comprehend, most cat breeds were a mutation someone liked and bred for. For example an abyssinian siamese cross litter produced a kitten with spots much like wild cats. Hence the ocicat breed
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I also understand is spotting a mutation? Well isnt it if it's abnormal from the lineage? Neither abyssinians nor siamese are spotted. Im just at work typing in between cases, there are many other examples much better. Sphynx, munchkin, etc... also what ISa mutation? Not just 2 heads, but is a coloration or ear set or head shape never seen going to be considered a mutation?

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Well now thats really closing off your mind and completely ignoring inherited mutations. And even aquired mutation can be caused by defects in the gene itself as the cells divide not related to enviromental exposure

Albinoism, hypermelanistic, and hypomelanistic animals are all due to genetic mutations. Piebald colorations are genetic mutations - think of a piebald deer. King cheetas are a geetic mutation that causes striping instead of spots.

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Discussion Starter #20
no doubt but in a planned breeding program the breeder waits for a desired mutation to just spontaneaously appear?

and how many of these mutations attribute to desired behavioural/character type working traits in working dogs as oppossed to striped cheetahs?

just asking?
 
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