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Discussion Starter #21
Ok. So a sport dog. That changes things. I have never owned or handled one. Lol. So I will read and hush.
I'm not so sure it really does? At least not as far as the original intended spirit of this thread

when shopping 7 - 8 week old litters for a potential protection candidate, what should one look for? In an individual pup, I mean. Obviously start with reputable breeder and proven working ped.

but when it comes time to pick one pup out of a good litter, what should one look for?
to that I've added the "local litters" caveat, but otherwise the original intent remains unchanged

in other words this isn't about hunting a top tier competition pup at all

only a hopefully correct, functional example of what an avg gsd pup ought to be. In theory at least.

My boss always said pick the one with attitude, because you can train it down but you can't train it up.
By attitude he referred to confidence and a bit of swagger. The ones that will push their own limits and yours as well.
I liked this answer but fear it may be somewhat vague for the uninitiated?

care to elaborate any further?
 

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I have never trained a dog for sport. Or lived with one. I cannot elaborate on the criteria needed for such a venue.
When I was raising litters for work I was looking for the pups that best balanced a natural affinity for humans with a refusal to give up or take no for an answer. I wanted the ballsy little Hellraiser that would try anything once.
I wanted the pup that would fall off the first step and come back with a vengeance. :ROFLMAO: And do that a hundred times! I looked for the first one to climb out of the box, I liked the ones that you had to wonder if they would survive another day. I am looking for bitey, fighty little demons that seek out human companionship.
Intelligence is also a key, because an actual PPD is going to need a high level of discernment and they can't be one without the other. I like the break in the fence test. A smart pup will find it to get to you. The rest will sit there and cry.
 

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How about if they go through a screen to get to you without looking for the opening? Because that’s what mine did. He wasn’t going to waste time looking for a break. 😂😂😂
Sabi did that! Right through the screen. Lol. Wasn't my house either!

We had a section of fencing that was built for this test. The idea was to stand on one side away from the break and have someone bring the pup in. About half would sit directly in front of you and cry, paw at the fence. Some would give up and go away and then you had the ones that would start looking for a way through.
 

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I watched this video for the second time and I think it is filled with good information and reflects how high level selection of dogs and correct training are so important. IMO, the vast majority of people starting or involved with sport or PP are vastly lacking in knowledge and availability of quality training. I read about people wanting to do PP training with their dogs and they just don’t get it. Really good dogs are hard to find.
 

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Chip, I think he raises a ton of good points. A protection dog is a different dog then a pet or a sport dog and I think people, a lot of people, incorrectly assume that a PPD should be really aggressive when the opposite is true.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Chip I don't disagree at all, but you have a lot of experience, and according to you, your current situation is practically "meant to be." So it's kind of a perspective thing, or maybe even like a league thing. The op was really meant as more of like an "entry level" human trying to select a "first time" local pup to train for whatever title is easiest to earn @ a typical club. Think "training wheels" here :) we're not shopping a new dog for el chapo, and we're not deploying to syria.
 

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People are getting misinformation. I saw a video today that after the first mechanical vote counter was used, elections have been rigged ever since. Different topic but same principle. The way we think the world works has nothing to do with how the world works. The dog world is just a microcosm of that hypothesis.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
personally I'm a vpat guy. I don't doubt for a nanosecond the ability of an expert to "freestyle" a better puppy eval. For me vpat works because it's "strictly formulated." I don't doubt for a nanosecond the ability of an expert to "freestyle" judge a protection trial, either; but most carry a clipboard and a pen. Just like me when I vpat :)

 

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In my experience, no.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
mainly as I said, because it's "strictly formulated" and therefore if done correctly, objective and scientifically sound

level playing field, each pup get's a little scorecard, kinda like a round of golf...
 

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Discussion Starter #37
If anyone knows of a better standardized curriculum, I'd LOVE to see it, by all means
 

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What part of training a living being with thoughts, emotions, drive is truly objective?

Then why use an objective test?

Work the dog you have. Find out what you like and don't like about that dog. Rinse and repeat. Even better if you get to work lots of dogs, or at least watch them work, in the interim.
 
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