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Discussion Starter #1
Happy Holidays!

I will be a first time GSD owner and looking for the right breeder in Central New Jersey area. I thought you all here could help guide me to a good breeder in the area (or should I import one or ship one in from another state, seems wierd to me) and also to critique a breeder as a way to educate myself on different things I have little knowledge on thus far (i.e. line breeding, pedigree details, etc).

First and foremost, I am looking for a companion dog to join my pack, wife, two children (4 years and 2 years), and our house cat. I'm also very interested in pursuing Schutzhund with the GSD, but not on a competitive basis (more of a way for the dog and I to learn about the sport together, to bond together, and to enhance his training with professionals). I'm also looking to purchase the pup no earlier then a spring 2008 litter. My budget is up to $2,500. I don't care so far (since I have little knowledge of) which line the dog comes from as long as it's German and not American, healthy (parents OFA normal/good), correct temperment, genetics are stacked my way for a good long term healthy dog.

After the holidays in Jan, I'll be visiting several kennels in the area. I will also start going to the local club events to meet other GSD lovers and really see what the breed, training, and show/sports are about. I'm compiling an entire list of questions for the breeder and preparing myself and my home for the pup (references, financial / time budgetting, fixing the 16x9 kennel i have on my property, etc).

I would appreciate any help you might have in locating the right breeder for me that you think breeds the kind of pup I am looking for, advice/guidance on the type of lines I should look at, and any feedback on the below breeder and dogs.

After doing some research about the local clubs, I found a breeder who is the president of two clubs (one with USA and the other with GSDCA-WDA). The web site for his breeding program is at: Jagermeister Shepherds .

He has a litter planned with the below dogs in 2008. When I do a Mate! check on the pedigrees, there are several linebreedings coming up that I am worried about. The dam also worries me with the linebreeding, but I have no experience to undestand if this is a red flag or not.

Sire: Branco vom Banholz; SchH3, IPO3, FH, KKL2 - Pedigree

Dam: Beau van 't Leefdaalhof ; SchH1 - Pedigree

As somewhat of a case study, what do you think of the above dogs, what kind of litter they might produce, and the kennel in general from the web site I linked.

I understand there are a lot of other important factors to consider with this kennel, and I will gather that information when I visit, but I'm wondering if I'm wasting my time if the dogs he has and plans to breed are just not correct or desirable.

Thank you for any help you can offer and have a great holiday!
 

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Looking at this, it will be a 2-2 on Dasty. the two dogs you list are half siblings. this is an extremely close linebreeding, then besides that....In fact, under the German system - which is much more quality control oriented than AKC, this close a breeding is not normally permitted.

5 - 5,5.............. in SG Timmy von der bösen Nachbarschaft

5 - 5................ in SG Arthus vom Lünsholz

5 - 5................ in Erle vom Buckower Feld

5 - 5,5............. in V Orlie vom Körbelbach

4 - 4............... in SG Half vom Ruhbachtal

4 - 4............... in V Karlo vom Peko Haus

5 - 5............... in V Ork vom Wolfendobel

5 - 5.............. in Jago vom Haus Gremm

5 - 5.............. in Nancy vom Mutzbach

4 - 4.............. in Gipsy von der Schafbachmühle

5 - 5.............. in Dunja vom Bernet

3 - 3............ in SG Pike von der Schafbachmühle

4 - 4............ in Anja vom Kerpener-Land

3 - 3.......... in SG Forma von Karthago

2 - 2.......... in Dasty Von Der Berger Hochburg


As a novice, and for a home companion dog, I would strongly encourage you to look further. This is not lineage known for being laid back, low prey house dogs.

Lee
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thank you for the reply.

I'm going to skip that litter as it doesn't make sense for me to get involved with a pup that has so close line breeding like that (I assume they are more likely to be aggressive or have other traits a novice like me might have difficulty handling).

So my search continues. So far, I have the following kennels I will check out:

http://www.vonwyndmoor.com/

http://www.vomfloydhaus.com/

http://workinggermanshepherd.com/

(thanks rezkat5 for the references!)

Does it make sense for me to look outside of my area? I'm not sure if I can justify the expense of flying across country in search of a companion dog. If I were showing or entering into competitive sports, then no doubt I would take that investment of time and money, but I just can't believe I wont be able to find a good companion dog with great genetics from local breeders (with exercising patients to wait on the right litter).
 

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I've never heard of vonwyndmoor, so can't comment.

I know that T.Floyd is very highly respected for his dogs and for the dog training and teaching he does. I've heard nothing but good things about him on the internet, and that is saying something, considering how the internet seems to sometimes bring out the worst in some people. However, his dogs may also be too strong/serious/drivey dogs for what you are looking for.

I think that your best bet is the last link you posted, Molly Graf of Eichenluft. She used to be a member of this board and we have active members here that have dogs from her breeding, and are very happy with them. As a small hobby breeder, temperament suitable for familly environment combined with work ability are a major focus of her breeding program. I know she has produced awesome dogs that do well on the field, and are completely reliable family companions too.

Hope this helps a bit.
 

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Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Quote:Does it make sense for me to look outside of my area?
Never hurts!


Lots of good dogs being produced through out the USA.. Plus lots of good breeders right here on this bb!!
 

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Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

T Floyd does sometimes have working line/showline crosses. 2 members of my SAR team have litter mates. They describe their dogs as 'medium' drive. Both are working very well. One is also doing schutzhund.

I worked a bit with T this summer and really like him. He knows his dogs!!!

Good luck with your search!
 

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Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

I would also give thumbs up for T. Floyd and Jim Hill in this area for Schh prospects. Jagermeister also has very competative dogs but I am not sure I would recommend them for a novice. Molly also gets a huge thumbs up


Cherri
 

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Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Wow, there are a lot of good breeders in the area, mainly in PA. NJ doesn't really have anyone I am considering, althought I will visit Carlos (Jeigermesiter) as he is only 20 minutes from me.

Here is my list so far. I will take the next week to pair it down some to get to a top 5. I can't visit them all!

http://www.vonwyndmoor.com/ - May not have pup for novice like myself; depends on litter at the time. Highly recommended

http://www.vomfloydhaus.com/ - Again, might not have the right pup for a novice; depends on litter at the time. Highly recommended

http://workinggermanshepherd.com/ - vom Eichenluft - Highly recommended and first kennel I really like the guarentee posted, especially around ethics about breed quality dogs (will not give full registration without proof the dog is suitable for breeding).

http://www.wilmothdogs.com/WK9/ - Highly recommended - have not yet reached out to the breeder

http://www.vomsilbersee.com/ - Again, highly recommended but have not reached out to the breeder

http://www.vomrheinland.com/ - I have not received any references or recommendations on this breeder just yet, but came across her from pedigreedatabase message board. I really like the breeding program and gear towards german breeding standards and 'real' german shepherds. She is in MA so the drive will be a good 5 hours.

http://www.frauengarten.net/index.html - Again, highly recommended but have not yet reached out to them.

http://www.wolfstraum.net/ - Lee has provided a lot of feedback and insight to me and his dogs all appear to be top knotch. Drive is a good 5+ hours from me.

My top five so far:

http://www.vonwyndmoor.com/

http://workinggermanshepherd.com/

http://www.vomrheinland.com/

http://www.wolfstraum.net/

http://www.vomfloydhaus.com/
 

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Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

I think you will find that many breeders have the same guarantee/warranty. Limited registration until proof of hips and title are also common. Also, you should examine your referring people for their experience in training for schutzhund and titling dogs. All too often, finding a pup is based on a popularity contest and second hand information. I also highly recommend checking how many and what siblings of a pup are doing - in the US we have 3 organizations where dogs can be titled, and all three of those organizations publish results of trials and shows.

Personally, I will only recommend breeders whose ethics and integrity are proven and known personally, litters whose bloodlines and/or dogs themselves I know personally and then only after knowing more about the needs of the buyer.

Also, as I mentioned, if you are joining a specific club, then the training director may have some direction he prefers as well.

Lee
 

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Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Good advice Lee!

Also wanted to add.. Find out what the breeders goals are with the particular breeding.. Look into what the breeders progeny are doing.. Talk w/the training directors..
 

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Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Finding a breeder who you can trust to keep their word written or not and who has a good reputation is no easy task. I know some people on this forum that have spent years looking for the right breeder.

The problem is once you purchase your pup and plunk down your hard earned cash if you have a problem with your pup the breeder holds all the cards.

So take your time and visit the kennel and talk to people who have actually bought a dog from that breeder. Make doubly sure your comfortable with the breeder.

One other thing I would never do is buy a dog with a limited AKC regestration. What if you had to sell the dog for whatever reason? You will get all kinds of reasons for the breeder selling you the pup with a limited regestration. Think it thru and see if it makes sense for you.


A GSD pup cost a lot of money these days take your time and be 100% sure your comfortable with the breeder.
 

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Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Sorry - responsible breeders use limited for just that reason - to make sure their dogs don't end up in some puppy mill or BYB 10 x 10 having litters over and over.

Today there is an ad on the database - FREE - first come, first serve - 2 females 2 & 4 years old - WITH PAPERS - each has had 2 litters - yea, right - whoever bred those two dogs didn't care too much what happened to them and the person who bought them doesn't either obviously. Sorry no cigar - no open papers on females until titled and hips done.

SORRY if this seems mean - right now I am just totally absolutely APPALLED at the uncaring callousness of that ad!!!!!!!

Lee
 

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Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

My suggestion is to take your time. I looked for months for a breeder and get references. I joined other GS forums to get an idea what certain breeders were like and their goals.

Have an open mind about travelling out of state. I could have had my puppy flown home but didn't feel comfortable about it. Instead, I drove 9 hours one way to meet my breeder and pickup my pup because I thought he was awesome on the phone. No regrets.
 

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Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Agree with Lee on the limited registration issue.

As far as
Quote:What if you had to sell the dog for whatever reason?
Most breeders who really care about their dogs, and therefore many of those who employ limited registration, also have a First Right of Refusal clause in their contracts. The idea being that the new owner *can't* just sell the dog if they need to or want to. The breeder must be given opportunity to take the dog back, and either keep it or rehome it themselves. The breeder may allow the owner to sell the dog, but not without being involved in the process to help ensure that the dog will be in a good home, and that the breeder will at all times know where the dog is, who the dog is with, and be able to keep tabs on the dog.

If these terms mean losing a customer or two because that person feels they're unreasonable, or that once they pay for the dog it should be theirs free and clear to do with as they will, so be it. I know we've lost a couple customers over these issues because we won't budge on it. Oh well. Doesn't bother me. I don't want to just sell a dog and be done with it. And I'd much rather work with people who understand the reasons behind these stipulations, and who are willing to keep in touch with me and build a relationship with me. Not only have I made good friends that way, but it eases my mind to always know where our pups are and how they are doing, and I feel it certainly helps ensure that both dog and owners are happy long term. There are many other breeders who feel the same way and I'm sure they don't mind if clauses in their contract help weed out potential customers who wouldn't be willing to cooperate on those issues either.
 

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Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

DHau
Good for you I thought I drove a lot 4 hours to pick up my pup.
But it is absoultly essiential to see your new pup before you buy it no matter who the breeder is.
 

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Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Chris elaborated and expressed many of my thoughts that I could not express due to my anger at the moment!

I have lost sales too over this - one to a friend who understood my reasons, says they will sell on limited as well for same reasons, LOL but would not BUY on limited! We are still friends too! Another friend who wanted one of my pups would not budge on it, and very sadly, passed away - which was always one of my arguements for the limited, so the dog does not just dissappear if something would happen to the owner.

Lee

Lee
 

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Re: Searching for right breeder in Central New Jer

Lee
You seem like a very responsibe breeder but not all breeders show that same responsibility.

From a consumers point of view a limited regestration gives all the power to the breeder. It's the big brother syndrome in spades.
In other words you have to do this or do that or get a Sch 1 before I will give you a full AKC regestration.
What if the husband or wife dies. The customer can't sell the dog without the breeder approving the sale and then the new customer gets a limited regestartion. I don't think so!!

I passed on many breeders because of limited regestration and I'm glad I did. I don't need a big brother in my life telling me what I can do and can not do after in some cases I have paid thousands of dollars for a GSD pup.
How many breeders will give back the total purchase price of the pup and say I'll take full responsibility for that pup?
 
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