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Cool! Any good websites that you might be able to recommend that break down the training process a little better?

I was initially thinking that 'reward from source' meant that the training reward (ball) was hidden in with the odor but rather it seems that when the dog indicates on the odor, the reward (ball) blindly comes from up over top/ to the side of him.
 

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That's our scentwork trainer. :) I've been taking classes from Andrew for several months.
 

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I was initially thinking that 'reward from source' meant that the training reward (ball) was hidden in with the odor but rather it seems that when the dog indicates on the odor, the reward (ball) blindly comes from up over top/ to the side of him.
Initially, you would have two balls, the first one would be hidden with the odor to create an association between them. The dog is rewarded with the second ball, which is hidden on the handler, or in our case, Andrew throws the reward which he tucks under his arm while we search.

The K9 Nosework people have recently changed their rules to not allow throwing anything during trials, so the reward will have to be away from the source in the future.
 

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Ok, so its essentially both. So lets say this is the first time working the dog in this method ,the scenario is set up as follows: Ball #1 hidden with odor in cardboard box amongst other cardboard boxes. Dog locates odor of substance (or at this point, maybe he is scenting the ball?). Dog indicates. Ball #2, which is hidden in arm pit or in pocket of handler, is launched towards the site of odor, but the dog doesn't see you do it. Success?

Is the association made with ball #1 because the dog can smell both the ball and odor together? There is no tearing through the barrier (cardboard box) to show the dog his ball is in there with the odor, right?

Love hearing about new methods.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
The way we have been doing it forever is that the initial imprinting is done via a scented reward. I conduct retrieve drills with this.I also train the directionals using the scented reward. Then I place a large amount of target odor with the scented reward. When the dog exhibits final trained response, I flip over whatever it is and dog gets reward. As quickly as possible I remove the reward from the hide and dog is only alerting on the target odor. I now have the reward and deliver from under the arm, waistband of pants whatever. We try to maintain the illusion that reward IS source. I also use the BSD remote occassionaly/ You can also get another handler to deliver the reward from time to time. With an aggressive alert dog it is easier to distract the dog while he is scratching and slam the reward down. With a passive dog,you insist that the dog STARE at source then deliver the reward. :)
 

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Tried and true. That is how we are doing with Beau.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Redline Magnet Ball Reward System


this is one that I use. for my retrievers that are also in hunt test training I use Dokken foam retrieving dummies. Some dogs prefer a ball and I use the KONG variety with the throwing rope attached. regular tennis balls can damage enamel and are easily swallowed.


by directionals I am referring to the left,right and back commands to direct the dogs while offleash :)
 

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I like that magnet ball - looks a lot quicker than a ball in a pocket or less clusmy than one under your armpit. How do they hold up to tugging?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
so far so good. pretty tough. magnets are very strong so you can stick it anywhere on you like behind your neck under your hair etc.
for obedience I stick it on front. I really wish I would have thought of it.....LOL
 

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I think my dogs are going to be taped for one of the DVDs in the series. I got a text from Andrew today asking if I'll be available for taping one evening next week, which I should be able to do. Whether Keefalo will actually end up on the DVD or the cutting room floor (figuratively speaking), who knows?

Wonder if they can shoot around me? It would be way cool to have either or both dogs in the DVD, I'm just not sure *I* want to be in it, lol!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I hear ya. Well depending on what they do, they could shoot just the dog or have someone else throw the reward or something. :)
 

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Andrew usually throws the reward because his aim and timing are much better, so that won't be an issue. I guess it depends on how wide they shoot vs zooming in on the dog.

I just heard back from him, we'll be meeting at the Michael Ellis School on Wednesday. Keefer will probably be the poster child for how to engage the less motivated dog. :whistle: :D He can find the odor, he's just not as into it as Halo is. They're both a bit rusty too, so it should be interesting. There will be dogs there that are a lot more advanced, but he wants to show dogs at various stages of training so I think he's taping as many of his clients as possible.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
cool. bit of advice. dont let others or yourself throw a reward as you go through life..... hahaha seriously, easy to get sloppy and wind up with a dog looking back at the handler for the reward. I put it under my armpit etc and change up all of the time. This is one of the things I frequently have to "fix" in my seminars and have for 25 years. :)
 

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I definitely *get* that many LE want to be able to look between the dogs ears to the nose and that nose is pointing at source and Beau will be trained that way --and it does help the handler with locating it exactly.

But I have seen any number of dogs with solid histories and finds who do look at the handler AFTER they commit to source and give their trained indication and can touch the source on command. If the dog was reliable and consistent, why would you bother to fix that?

I am not talking about the dog who looks to the handler for help with making a decision. I clearly understand that is a problem.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
looking at the handler is indicative of a dog that KNOWS the reward is going to be thrown as opposed to receiving at source and source only. In passive alert dogs this encourages the dog to exhibit final trained response farther and farther from source in anticipation of receiving the reward. It also encourages false alerts. Folks who are lazy and throw from a distance instead of walking up and always rewarding at source create this behavior. I have seen this for 25 yrs consistently and had to fix the dogs. In HRD alerting a distance from source has a direct impact in many cases on the recovery. A dog alerting 4 feet from source for example can be a real problem in a disaster scenario. I have seen it. Also in my most recent case, the dogs alerting AT the small bone which is very hard to see however,due to the accuracy of the dogs we were able to recover several more small bones. An alert a short distance from it and we would not have probably been succesful . If the dog is maintenance trained in a manner in which the dog knows that he will not receive the reward except AT source and at source only, he will not have a tendency to get sloppy. The handler will know that by golly where that dog exhibited final trained response IS where the target odor is . PERIOD:)
 

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looking at the handler is indicative of a dog that KNOWS the reward is going to be thrown as opposed to receiving at source and source only. In passive alert dogs this encourages the dog to exhibit final trained response farther and farther from source in anticipation of receiving the reward. It also encourages false alerts. Folks who are lazy and throw from a distance instead of walking up and always rewarding at source create this behavior. I have seen this for 25 yrs consistently and had to fix the dogs. In HRD alerting a distance from source has a direct impact in many cases on the recovery. A dog alerting 4 feet from source for example can be a real problem in a disaster scenario. I have seen it. Also in my most recent case, the dogs alerting AT the small bone which is very hard to see however,due to the accuracy of the dogs we were able to recover several more small bones. An alert a short distance from it and we would not have probably been succesful . If the dog is maintenance trained in a manner in which the dog knows that he will not receive the reward except AT source and at source only, he will not have a tendency to get sloppy. The handler will know that by golly where that dog exhibited final trained response IS where the target odor is . PERIOD:)
I always reward at source (now) -- but the only issue I ever developed from throwing the ball was the dog leaving source to get to the ball or anticipating the ball..and the correction was to make him stay there until I got there to reward him He knows that he cannot leave source and must be able to touch it with his nose (or paw) to get the ball. Unless I am AT source and reward him he cannot leave it. No problems with fringing or false indicating

But I honestly don't see an issue with the dog indicating, then looking at the handler as long as commitment to source is maintained. LIke I said I am building that with Beau (sit and stare).
 
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