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Discussion Starter #1
I need some help from you oil experts.

A few years back WDJ had an article on the wonders of coconut oil. I have been giving it off and on (when I find the extra virgin organic on a good sale) to Chama. She's currently on it now instead of the salmon oil. What are the advantages and disadvantages of the salmon oil v. the coconut oil? Rafi has problems digesting fat so I'm wondering if the coconut oil would be better for him? I'm giving it to Chama because I seem to remember the article said it was especially good for older dogs.

Thanks for any help!
 

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if I recall, the coconut oil doesn't require the same digestive process that salmon oil does. It's supposed to be antibacterial, promote a healthy flora, etc.

However, my dogs didn't do well on it, and Indy was covered in flakes. they don't tolerate salmon oil either. I give ground flax, and sometimes avocado. I think avocado is in the same class as coconut oil, but don't quote me. There might be something in avocado that dogs have a problem with?
 

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I am leery of avocado as it can be toxic to birds if they get the brown part, near the skin or pit. So if it is toxic to them, shouldn't it be the same way if they are processing it in a way that the brown meat is getting into the oi in concentration. I love avocado's and eat them, but won't give them to my animals. I thought the drawbacks of coconut oil was the cost.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Originally Posted By: LisaTif I recall, the coconut oil doesn't require the same digestive process that salmon oil does. It's supposed to be antibacterial, promote a healthy flora, etc.

However, my dogs didn't do well on it, and Indy was covered in flakes. they don't tolerate salmon oil either. I give ground flax, and sometimes avocado. I think avocado is in the same class as coconut oil, but don't quote me. There might be something in avocado that dogs have a problem with?
Lisa your dogs have the most delicate digestive systems in the world!
I think avocados are supposed to be toxic for dogs. I guess not for your dogs though!
 

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yes, they are the most sensitive in the world
Actually, each is sensitive in a different way, for the most part, so between the two of them, I've learned A LOT.

There's a blurb on the avocado issue somewhere on that ASPCA poison website. Indy does VERY well with a sliver of avocado on a daily basis, but Max has issues, related to his fat intolerance. His stools become very dark, almost black. Can't imagine it's bleeding, which is my first thought. Which, by the way, is the same thing that happens when I give him tylan, or feed him beef. Haven't a clue what that's about. Oops, sorry to digress.

If you use the coconut oil, I would love to hear some success stories after all the good things I've read about it.
 

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I was just at the vet's office today and reading the ASPCA's "101 Things That Can Hurt Your Dog" (or something like that) brochure. And avocado was listed in it.

Then again, they had drinking from the toilet listed in there too. "Too germy" was basically their argument.


Avocados. Coconut. Hmmm... looks like I have some researching to do. I'll get back to you, Ruth.

What about krill oil? I spent $18.99 on a tiny bottle of those capsules. While we're discussing oils, anyone have any thoughts?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Did you see that poop post that someone put up yesterday? It addressed dark stools.

I understand. Asides from Chama, who only has a few things that bother her tummy, ALL of my gsds and gsd mixes have had very delicate digestive systems. And each one has been different! For the first weeks I had Rafi it seemed like everything that went in him came out in a smelly fart!
A lot of it was nerves though because he also hiccuped and sometimes threw up too, poor guy. Now he's settled down. I have to feed him a night snack though because his metabolism is so fast. And he does best on grains and not grain free.

I am going to try to switch him over to the coconut oil and see how he does. I think the salmon oil bothers him.
 

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My dogs looooove coconut oil-they just had some last night as a treat. I have Nina on it regularly for her skin issues. I don't see much difference (she's on salmon oil too-she should be seal like) but she likes it.


Digestion is not an issue.

I believe GSMom uses it. In fact, I think there is a link in Nina's staph thread in the archives about where she gets it by the tub.

I was looking at this flax stuff: http://www.kvvet.com/KVVet/productr.asp?...A6BFF7BBDCA27A7
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Jean,

Since you have her on both salmon and coconut oil do you cut the amounts in half? That's what I do with Chama.

I found a giant tub of it recently for $21--xtra virgin, organic. I think that's a pretty good deal. The last time I bought it they had a buy one, get one free special on it.
 

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I got worried about giving both, that it would be too much for her system. I think I read somewhere that you could overdo the omega fatty acids. Who knows where though? I'm paranoid about that kind of stuff! Not that you'd understand!


What is up with her immune system? Too bad you're so suspicious of the holistic vets...

Today Patricia M was talking about Chinese herbs for dogs on "Calling All Pets." She actually said that you have to be careful about which proteins you're feeding because some are just too warm. I knew what she was talking about but I'm sure the rest of the audience was like, WTF??????
 

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Nah, not paranoid.


I am sure I could be overdoing but it seems like if I were, she'd be greasy and oily!

She has an IgA deficiency, her brother was her father-I don't think we'll be fixing that! EEK!

Yeah-not going to chance doing anything that will take too long and let her system really crash-or use her as my first experience in holistic vetting. I'll stick with the regular stuff and if I ever have the $ I'd try holistic on an already healthy dog.

And which of those coconut oils on that link are best for skin? Green? Gold? Expeller Pressed? I never ordered from there.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Here's the stuff I got--and for $8 less (although I didn't pay shipping):

http://www.vitacost.com/Nutiva-Organic-Extra-Virgin-Coconut-Oil-29-Ounces?csrc=GPF-692752200021

Her brother was her father?!?!?!?!? How did I miss that one? Talk about an oops litter. Yikes!

I feel the same way about western medicine. I'd rather not have vets experimenting on my animals until it's been around a few hundred more years and those pharmaceutical companies get an ethics board that works!
 

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Yeah-he broke into the mother's kennel-tunneled in or something like that. I don't think that's healthy!

I am going a little nutty...I think I am going to order this Honest Kitchen Invigor for her...I think that's pretty far out! http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/Honest-Kitchen-Invigor/200010.aspx

But as far as your original question-I have no idea! Someone should make a chart for that!
 

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I was going to suggest some kind of Immune Support. Rafi is getting blasted with green foods now. There are a bunch in the Longevity and he also gets dark leafy greens in the food I make him. The article I read on antioxidants said the whole food sources are far superior to anything powdered.

So far the coconut oil has not lived up to its promises (for Chama anyway) but then what does?
 

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Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowI got worried about giving both, that it would be too much for her system. I think I read somewhere that you could overdo the omega fatty acids. Who knows where though? I'm paranoid about that kind of stuff! Not that you'd understand!


What is up with her immune system? Too bad you're so suspicious of the holistic vets...

Today Patricia M was talking about Chinese herbs for dogs on "Calling All Pets." She actually said that you have to be careful about which proteins you're feeding because some are just too warm. I knew what she was talking about but I'm sure the rest of the audience was like, WTF??????
We like warm proteins at my house...especially elk.
And Camper does prefer his meat warmed too! With a touch of garlic!


More than being concerned about giving too many fatty acids, I think we should be aware of the potential to go too far in one extreme or the other in terms of which ones.

This webpage is interesting: http://www.benbest.com/health/essfat.html. The author cites a lot of studies; some of his correlations between studies are a little flimsy, but to me, there is a convincing argument that more than worrying about quantity of essential fatty acids (which after all, appear in pretty much all healthy foods), we need to worry about the balanceof the omega 3s and 6s.


Granted, this is human biology, but with animal studies. So there isn't a lot of reason to assume that especially the immune systems work so differently. Inflammatory issues are the purview of the immune system. So it deserves our special attention. Everything from allergies to arthritis to IBD is affected.

So...it seem to me that we need to pay close attention to what our dogs are eating. What fatty acids are in what foods? Memorize EFA tables if we must
. What is a reasonable ratio for dogs? For humans, 1/1, but we evolved as omnivores. For dogs? I've seen anywhere from 3:1 (O3:O5) to 5:1. Dogs evolved eating grass and foliage-eating prey. So it's not that odd that the ratio would be that high. It's not like their biology expected them to go fishing. They got the O3s from eating moose and deer who ate the green stuff in the ecosystem.

(They didn't really evolve to eat grain-fed cattle and chickens. That's an idea that didn't come along until the last 100-150 years or so. And that's why I have so many issues with the "prey model" of raw feeding. We raw-feeders aren't feeding our dogs true "prey.")

On the other hand, too many Omega 3 fatty acids can cause low blood pressure, bleeding issues such as internal bleeding, bruising, and difficulty clotting (again, these symptoms are those we look for in humans). Because animal and human studies have shown that Omega 3s are so effective in combatting inflammation and autoimmune syndromes, one has to wonder if the inverse is true: if your animal becomes immunocompromised (infections that won't heal, for example), could the Omega 3s be exacerbating this? http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/ds-ltr11.html This isn't something your vet will EVER think of.

I think we just have to be informed. Really aware and as informed as possible. If our kids are eating well-balanced diets, then we're probably ok supplementing with a variety of oils. But if they're they're just eating a diet of straight fish all the time (Orijen fish kids do eat a lot of fish...
), we should probably ask the Orijen or Natural Balance folks exactly what the content is of O3s in the food, per serving (per cup, per ounce, whatever) is. If our kids are eating a straight venison and rice diet (because we KNOW that venison isn't grass-fed venison) then they can use a good deal more O3s

BTW, I just found this: Flaxseed generally contains 9% saturated, 18% oleic acid, 16% omega 6 and 57% omega 3 fatty acids. However, flaxseeds themselves contain phytic acid that can hinder the absorption of such nutrients as iron, calcium, phosphorus and zinc. So flax probably should be served separately from main meals.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Wow, someone did their research tonight! Thanks!

Patricia McConnell was saying that about warm foods in regards to a hyper active border collie, I think.

Chama needs to eat cooling foods so she gets duck in her diet. She gets fish (from Orijen fish), canned duck and then raw duck for her nighttime snack. She also gets fresh foods like eggs, chicken and raw beef (Cleo's leftovers). So I think she's reasonably balanced. But I read somewhere that the salmon oil can be an inflammatory if something else isn't added in. Did you come across that in your research? Sorry but I just remembered that.
 

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Well, what are we talking about when we say "salmon oil"? The actual oil from the fish? Or what we buy in the pharmacy section (or vet's office)? As you know, lot of fish oils (or fish oil capsules) contain vitamin E. But other fish/salmon oils, especially the cheaper ones, can contain soybean oil. Soybeans? Wait, do you mean http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c208B.html that score a -584 on our favorite webpage Nutrition Data's Inflammation index?

So the deal with fish oil is what else is with it. Mercury, yeah, of course
. But the other oils that often get mixed in. And these can serve to undo some of the good effects.

But wild Alaskan salmon is one of the most anti-inflammatory foods out there.


There had been some discussion here (maybe a year ago?) about feeding vitamin C with fish oil. But then others said it wasn't necessary because dogs generate their own C. Maybe that's what you're thinking of? I'm not sure if there was ever any consensus on that issue. And I'm not sure why people thought that Vitamin C had to be fed.
 
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