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Discussion Starter #1
Let's say you have a litter and much to everyone's surprise, out pops a WHITE pup! As the litter grows, you notice this white pup is outstanding. Great conformation, great temperament, fearless, confident, focused, great drive. THE pick of the litter in every aspect except color. Curious, you keep said white pup until he is about, say, 5 or 6 months to see how he grows out. He only gets better and better.

The question is, would you place this pup as a companion on a non-breeding contract, or would you consider selling him to a reputable breeder of whites, to help expand their gene pool and improve their breeding program?

What if the pup in question was a liver or blue?
 

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If a blue or liver it would be sold on limited registration with a non breeding contract into an appropriate and responsible home.

I would probably do the same with a white.
 

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If a blue or liver it would be sold on limited registration with a non breeding contract into an appropriate and responsible home.

I would probably do the same with a white.
I would too...unless the pup would make a better companion.
 

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I would probably give it to a working home. I don't know much about schutzhund or other sports, but from what i understand whites are faults only in shows and breed surveys? Am I wrong here??
If the white/blue/liver dog can work then it should work. Maybe if a white breeder is titling his dogs I would consider selling this particular dog to that breeder.
Then again I am not a breeder, so maybe if i was my answer would be different.
 

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Depends on the genotype to spay or neuter. Since the dog in question seems to be the exception rather than the rule, I would probably alter it. Maybe keep for fun, maybe sell for work/pet, maybe star in the picture shows..
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
I am not a breeder, but I can imagine I'd be really torn about what to do with the white pup. If blue or liver, I imagine I'd alter and place in a companion/working home. But now that whites are becoming their own breed, and there are reputable breeders working with whites, trying to improve upon their working ability and so on... would there be an ethical problem placing the pup with such a breeder?

And just for the sake of argument, let's say rhetorical white pup has an outstanding pedigree, from V-rated working lines, good hips, etc, and himself prelims with good hips and elbows, tests negative for all the bad stuff, and has excellent conformation as well as excellent temperament and drive. It is that once in a lifetime pup that would be destined to excel and rise to the top of everything, were he not white.
 

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A blue or liver would be sold on a spay/neuter contract to whatever home was most suitable for it's temperament. There are no reputable breeders of those colors.

I would intend to do the same if a white cropped up. But if approached by a serious, reputable WGSD breeder who titles (performance, not just conformation), health tests, has a solid, well thought out and focused breeding program and is well respected amongst the WGSD community, I would be willing to consider selling the pup as a breeding prospect to that person if the pup really was that exceptional and so was the breeder.
 

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Wouldn't this white pup also have genes for black/tan/red/sable (whatever was used to make it) in it also. That would probably prevent a WGSD breeder from wanting it since the pups that pop out could be colored then. So I wonder if any of them would even be interested. I guess as a breeder you have to also think of the fact that you would be spending time away from your "breedable" dogs in order to get this one trained properly and I don't know how many breeders can afford to do that. But if I had the time (and was a breeder) I'd keep it, if I didn't have the time, I'd sell to a pet/working home.
 

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Wouldn't this white pup also have genes for black/tan/red/sable (whatever was used to make it) in it also. That would probably prevent a WGSD breeder from wanting it since the pups that pop out could be colored then.
So does every other white GSD. White is a masking gene. The dog is genetically a regular color (sable, black/tan, etc..) masked with white. A white popping up in a "colored" litter is no different in that respect than a white from white parents. They are all white masking covering another color, so it would make no difference to the WGSD breeder and would be no different from what they are already working with. Any white GSD, if bred to another white GSD, will produce nothing but white pups, regardless of whether or not the whites are from generations of white breeding or just popped up in a normal breeding. And any white GSD bred to another color will produce other colors, and perhaps no whites at all unless the other color also happens to carry a copy of the white gene.
 

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A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question posed for its persuasive effect without the expectation of a reply.

rhetorical question:
Web definitions:
a statement that is formulated as a question but that is not supposed to be answered

Sorry, I was late to the party.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question posed for its persuasive effect without the expectation of a reply.

rhetorical question:
Web definitions:
a statement that is formulated as a question but that is not supposed to be answered
I know, I don't know why I said "rhetorical" when I meant "hypothetical." Can I blame a lack of coffee?
 

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If the dog is from non white parents, and has the potential to "better the breed", due to outstanding pastrns, croup, top line, etc., and would not contribute to the current bottle neck, why not breed with it? Rhetorically speaking of course.
Don't forget dear olde Horand was full of genes from a white dog.
 

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If the dog is from non white parents, and has the potential to "better the breed", due to outstanding pastrns, croup, top line, etc., and would not contribute to the current bottle neck, why not breed with it? Rhetorically speaking of course.
Don't forget dear olde Horand was full of genes from a white dog.

:thumbup: I agree This just seems like good sense to me. Didn't Max say "No good dog is a bad color?"
 

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I would sell the dog to an approved home with a neuter/spay contract. Most breeders that primarily breed for a select color are not the most reputable imo. I wonder how likely it is that I would find a very reputable white GSD breeder that focuses on titling and working their dogs. There are plenty of good representations of the breed that have been breed surveyed, titled and worked. I don't think anyone is going to breed survey a white GSD ...
 

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If you are breeding for police, military, leader dogs for the blind, or for working in the fields as a herding dog -- not just a dog to be titled in herding, then you are pretty much breeding for a whim anyway and that includes schutzhund, conformation, obedience, therapy dog, etc. I think a lot less actual damage to the breed itself is done breeding for color than breeding for the desired top line or for a dog that is crazy for the bite sleeve. But it (white) is not to standard.

Well, there are a LOT of things not to standard. 1/2 inch too large is not to standard but people are breeding dogs MUCH larger than that. Lacking in angulation is not to standard either, but people are breeding those dogs too. People breed poor feet, they breed weak backs, they breed things that would make a difference in the dog's ability to do the job.

Color is the last on the list of things to consider when buying a pup, it probably should be last on the list when considering whether or not to breed a dog. Do you breed a dog that is sensitive to storms -- no way. Do you breed a dog that is unstable around children, not on your life. Do you breed a dog that has epilepsy -- no. Do you breed a dog with hair feet? no.

Definitely there is a whole list of things that are so much more important than aesthetics.

Next you want the dog to look like a GSD. Flop ears, happy tail, stubby tail, big white splotch across the chest or on the paws -- they do detract from the look of a shepherd -- moreso than an off-color, even if they do not detract from the dog's working or companion ability.

Which brings us down to color and pattern. I like the saddle pattern black and brown dogs. I do not care for solids, sables, bi-colors, blanket backs, pandas (are they really, really sure?) -- but that is simply a preference, individual taste. I would not try to prevent anyone from breeding these color/patterns. I could really care less about people breeding whites. If I produced a white dog, and sold it, it would be up to the buyer whether or not they wanted to breed the dog. I am not really a fan of the whole limited registration thing people have bought into. If I do not want a dog bred for a reason, I will not provide papers, and even that isn't fool proof.
 

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I would sell the dog to an approved home with a neuter/spay contract. Most breeders that primarily breed for a select color are not the most reputable imo. I wonder how likely it is that I would find a very reputable white GSD breeder that focuses on titling and working their dogs. There are plenty of good representations of the breed that have been breed surveyed, titled and worked. I don't think anyone is going to breed survey a white GSD ...
One of the best examples of the breed I ever saw was a white dog in Utility at an AKC show. They are out there. They breed to the standard, the UKC standard, and they train and work with their dogs and show them in UKC shows. Some are exceptional. I think that some of them do a better job, are more reputable than many people with black and brown dogs in the AKC ring, who train for nothing except conformation, which is many, many of them.
 
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