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I use treats to encourage an enthusiastic heel. Sometimes I want a calm heel and other times a "drivey" one. Treats can build drive.

I use treats on recall. I want my dog to know that coming to me is the best thing ever. On walks in the park early in the morning, he is off leash with an e-collar. When I call his name, he gets a treat when he comes back to me. Then, I usually say "break" and let him go freely again. If he voluntarily comes back without me calling while on the walk, I also give him a treat. He is 2.5 years old. I have been treating a recall (casual or formal) since he was a puppy. A recall is a most valuable command to have rock solid. E-collars are excellent tools, so are treats.
 

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Couple of things ... first "treats" and "rewards" are not necessarily the same thing. Ruling out "puppies," in general the "overuse" or "incorrect" use of "treats" which for "JQP" typically means a "cookie" can easily lead to "too much excitement" or the giving of "treats" for the wrong behaviour. A lot of trainers don't use "treats" ie "cookies," a simple "good boy/girl" and call it day is "good enough." :)

And for "me" a dog has to "prove" they deserve that. I don't reward a dog for "not acting like fool" "I" "expect that." For "me" not getting a "correction" is "reward enough."

To "me" the "E- Collar" is irrelevant to the question ...an "E-Collar" is just a correction by other means. I'm not big on the whole "distract and treat thing??" I prefer a dog learn to freaking "deal with it." I don't get a "treat" for not acting like a "fool" why should my dog?? So your "Trainer" may not be "conventional" but he's not alone. :)
 

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]I don't think food causes them to become dependant if you do it right. Food can be a great motivator, it can be a great tool to explain something to a dog.
Yes but ... "Working for "Food" and rewarding "good/appropriate" behaviour with "treats" are two diffrent things. :)
 

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Yes but ... "Working for "Food" and rewarding "good/appropriate" behaviour with "treats" are two diffrent things. :)
So....I was trying to make a vague distinction about how you can use food to lure a dog into a behavior as a teaching method. It is easy to fade out the lure quickly.

Different thing than using food as a plain reward for a behavior. Neither causes the dog to become dependant unless you don't know how to use food properly. I personally would not use a trainer who didn't know how to use food properly.
 

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Bart Bellon, Michael Ellis, Ivan Balabanov, Tyler Muto...

All these trainers use food rewards and lures in their e-collar training. I don't think you have to look for more than that as evidence that it is a solid training method.

 

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Couple of things ... first "treats" and "rewards" are not necessarily the same thing. Ruling out "puppies," in general the "overuse" or "incorrect" use of "treats" which for "JQP" typically means a "cookie" can easily lead to "too much excitement" or the giving of "treats" for the wrong behaviour. A lot of trainers don't use "treats" ie "cookies," a simple "good boy/girl" and call it day is "good enough." :)

And for "me" a dog has to "prove" they deserve that. I don't reward a dog for "not acting like fool" "I" "expect that." For "me" not getting a "correction" is "reward enough."

To "me" the "E- Collar" is irrelevant to the question ...an "E-Collar" is just a correction by other means. I'm not big on the whole "distract and treat thing??" I prefer a dog learn to freaking "deal with it." I don't get a "treat" for not acting like a "fool" why should my dog?? So your "Trainer" may not be "conventional" but he's not alone. :)
Using food rewards in training is a great way to implement +R in operant conditioning. I understand that sometimes a "Good Boy" is enough, but if the food reward is higher value, the chance that the behavior will be repeated is higher.

Many behaviors can be trained and proofed with an e-collar. Not just "Don't act like a fool."
 

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Bart Bellon, Michael Ellis, Ivan Balabanov, Tyler Muto...

All these trainers use food rewards and lures in their e-collar training. I don't think you have to look for more than that as evidence that it is a solid training method.

http://youtu.be/gvN22a_WzYk
LOL, yet again I'm "that guy" out there kicking over sacred cows in the "Dog Park and stuff. :grin2:

People are busy "answering/defending" a "question/postion" I did not ask?? "Can Experienced "People" and "Pros/" get the behaviour they seek with the "appropriate use of "Treats/Food" as a reward??

Well ... sure but I'm not addressing people that "know how to train a dog." I'm addressing those that don't, and those dog owners tend to use treats (cookies) "inappropriately" all the time. And often end up "rewarding" for the "wrong behaviour" and "creating excitement" in the dog not stopping it. Happens all the time.

As for "me" ... "Saddly" I have no "Proof" of concept clips. :(
As I did not know I was doing anything "different" at the time???

I "stopped" my "Boxer" from chasing "Rabbits" towards the Hwy, South and allowed her to chase them "North" towards the Mountains off leash in the desert with the use of the word ..."NO!" No treats no distraction. You're not chasing "that" one dog ... deal with it.


And "Rocky" with his people "issues" did not get "treats" or "distracted" from "people" his "job" was to "not act like a fool around people." I showed him how I expected him to behave and he got that ... no use of treats or distractions.

Branching out with "Deer Dog" (Boxer of course) a confirmed chaser of "Deer" and a leash "Puller." I only ever worked with him once impromptu on a walk with friends. I couldn't handle the owner struggling with him any longer, so I took over. I fashioned a SLL, and the "pulling" thing for me of course was nothing. Less than two minutes that problem solved. In full view of the "Boxer" owner he saw nothing happening and certainly nothing to object to?? The dog "just changed."

We than proceeded on our walk with the dog (now) walking calmly beside us. At some point forgetting about the dog. We stopped and talked, we were discussing the "Dog's serious Deer issues."

They had just spent the other evening chasing the dog down when he bolted after "Deer." I was exampling to him about "Prongs and E-Collar" crittering protocols. When I remember ... "oh yeah the dog??" I start to move and I look down first and notice the dog is now stiff as a board and staring into the distance??? Puzzled, I follow the dogs gaze??? And see not one but two Deer about 20 yards away!! :surprise:

"I" was stunned , the dog never moved, never made a sound, he merely stood there "Not Acting Like a Fool' while we conversed. I stared at him "disbelieving" and say "OK" and ... off we went, no issues no problem and no "distractions or use of treat." You can't prepare for the sudden spontaneous arrival of "Deer to "test a concept" ... although in Virginia City NV ...maybe you can??

And yet another "not my own dog deal" Pulling, and Fear of People, issues" sigh ... yet again "Boxer!" I did the "exact same thing" with him I did with "Rocky" "people ... are not your concern dog." Your job is to not "act like a fool" because I got your back.

That "Boxer" (Tic Tac Toe) was actually my first use of a SLL?? I'd never used or seen one before?? The rescue "handed it to me" and said use this?? Ok ... whatever, I was since "Struddell" a regular collar and flat leash guy. But ... I looked at the SLL saw the little tabby things and said ... interesting?? I used the little "tabbies" positioned the "SLL" high and snug and began. Of course the dog protested at this "new development" with a "different" use of a tool which he had routinely abused. But "this" time something was different??

He protested for maybe 30 to 40 seconds and I simply held, pressure. He then decided apparently "well this is not working??" He then "stopped the crap" and stood there ... the pressure went away. He then waited thought and sat down. He "offered the Sit!' I was kinda stunned by that. But I looked down at him and said "OK" and off we went.

We walked and would on "occasion" stop and talk, my "default distance" to talk to people when I had a "Dog" with issues on leash was "Rocky." And that distance seemed to be about 5 feet. So that's what "we" did. At each encounter the dog merely stood quietly by my side. We were having a great time together as we toured the "Park" lot's of people and lots of dogs and he was having no issues dealing. I looked down at the dog and thought ''huh" ... this is odd?? This dog is as well mannered and behaved on leash as my own "Struddell" I'm not really seeing any issues here, oh well ...."whatever??"

And then ... in our very next people encounter ... we stop and talk at our now established default distance. I answer questions,"Tic Tac Toe" calmly by my side, and this time ..."JQP" does ask to pet "Tic Tac Toe??" I'm pondering an answer as thus far I'd observed "no" people issues whatsoever???" Perhaps I was taking to long to think for "JQP" because as I thought it over?? They stepped forward!

"Tic Tac Toe" never made a sound and did not lunge or act crazy "don't be acting like a fool dog" but what he did do ...was take a step towards me, and pressed firmly but quietly against my leg?? I looked down at him and he then looked at me and his eyes were big as saucers!!! "Oh ... there it is!" Without looking up my hand went out and I said "Stop "Fear of people issues, he's in training" and off we went.

The rest of the day was spent back at camp doing "Sit on the Dog" I made no requirements of him, no "Sit or Down" he just couldn't leave my side further than the distance of the leash. He was "apparently" good with that as he seemed to be just as happy and boisterous as the other Boxers! :)

At the end of the day I hand him over and sure enough there he goes off in the distance dragging his owner with the same "SLL" I had just used in tow! So yeah it's not about the "tool" it's about the "owner" there. :whistle:

I did hear he got "Adopted!" Most likely he is still a "puller??" So those and more that a few other miscellaneous strays I've wrangled up and returned to owners. A few door bolting "Back Yard" dogs that don't even know what a leash is, a few have been returned with makeshifts SLL's and we calmly walk down the block and I return them to there owners. No "treats" or use of "distraction" needed.
Michael Ellis, ... notwithstanding ... I'm not a freaking treat machine (The guy rubs me the wrong way. :))

I have however read "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" for "Pet People" and I recall no mention in it of the use of "Treats or Distractions" for training a well behaved dog?? If it's in there?? I'll have to read it again. If those are mentioned in his book on training "Guards" and so I wouldn't know as that's not my thing.

Tylor of course I know ... he ticked me off with "over use of treats in training that one "Pitty" in "Place.' Other than I use his work.

"Ivan Balabanov," ... Muskeg mentioned him in the past and here he is again ... so I suppose ... I got no choice but to check him out. And "Bart Bellon" I've not heard of him so I'll add him to my list of trainers to check out. "Live and learn" as it were. You never know where you'll pick something up or gain a better understand of "doggy stuff" from. As for me "I'm" just a "Pet Guy" so yeah I looked for results ... I never knew I was doing anything "unique."
So ... yeah ... I've never written a book or have "clips of my own" so there is that.


But just because "something is "unconventional" does not automatically equate to "can't be done." If that were the case "Dog Training" would never need to change??

To "me" Tylor Mutos "Conversational Leash Work" ....:

Strikes "me" as very similar to "KMODT" work with the long line, accept you do give a crap where the dog is. :)
 

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Using food rewards in training is a great way to implement +R in operant conditioning. I understand that sometimes a "Good Boy" is enough, but if the food reward is higher value, the chance that the behavior will be repeated is higher.

Many behaviors can be trained and proofed with an e-collar. Not just "Don't act like a fool."
Oh ... understood ...the "shaping a behaviour" and lurking into postion thing. The "heel postion" comes to mind after a recall. I've never "asked" for that.

But I've see that trained without treats so ... I'll have to give it shot and see what I think???
 

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Chip I have to disagree with one thing you said up there: people misusing food and rewarding wrong behavior and creating overly excited, out of control dogs (paraphrase). The most common mistake I see people make with food is that they don't teach the dog to work independently of the food -make the dog reliant on the food-

I have absolutely seen pure positive trainers use toys as rewards and create out of control dogs, no boundaries, just wild adrenaline.
 

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When using an e collar, which isn't often, I always reward when I get the desired behavior/action. Either a treat or a 'good girl' as taught to me by Michael Ellis' business partner.
ME's business partner is more than good enough! The "Top Guy" can't do everything and that's why they "Train" other trainers. I'll not try and tell "you" that what you were taught can't work??? That would be pointless as well as silly. :)

Most likely, if I worked "one on one" with one of his disciples ... even I would be impressed. I only single him out because I heard how he address the exact same situation I deal with differently.

Elevator dog was his example and he was explaining,how when the door opens ... you distract the dog (from dogs) and treat,treat treat. Well ... what happens if the dog won't take treats??? Hopefully there is a "viable" Plan B??? I don't know, I never heard him answer the "what if my dog won't take treats, questions there??"

I don't do a "Plan B" I just look/work for "Calm" dogs. And you don't need to work with 100's or 1000's of dogs to know what "calm looks like." The dog I work with seem to get the "Calm" thing pretty quickly?? So they already "understand" what is of expected of them "before" I put them into a postion where they need to make a "good choice." If they "choose" not to "chose" they defer to me and I get them out of there!

I couldn't imagine having to deal with 116 lbs of out control WL GSD in front of people and hoping I could indeed "distract him with treats???" That did not strike me as sensible ... so I never tried. That does not mean it can't work ... but it's certainly nothing I'd ever do or recommend to others.

On the other hand ...ME, you know ... I share his "Fear Period in Young Dogs" lecture all the time. :


I was rolling however, when I first heard him make his "discovery" in class on the use of "treat" with dogs and "strangers." :grin2:

Flattering myself here but ... as they say "the only thing three dog trainers will agree on ... is that one of them is wrong." :p

The trainers I tend to follow also train the proper use of E-Collars and they don't use treats. Maybe I should have lead with that??

At anyrate, glad his methods worked for you and your dog ... you'll get no grief from me. :)
 

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ME's business partner is more than good enough! The "Top Guy" can't do everything and that's why they "Train" other trainers. I'll not try and tell "you" that what you were taught can't work??? That would be pointless as well as silly. :)

Most likely, if I worked "one on one" with one of his disciples ... even I would be impressed. I only single him out because I heard how he address the exact same situation I deal with differently.

Elevator dog was his example and he was explaining,how when the door opens ... you distract the dog (from dogs) and treat,treat treat. Well ... what happens if the dog won't take treats??? Hopefully there is a "viable" Plan B??? I don't know, I never heard him answer the "what if my dog won't take treats, questions there??"

I don't do a "Plan B" I just look/work for "Calm" dogs. And you don't need to work with 100's or 1000's of dogs to know what "calm looks like." The dog I work with seem to get the "Calm" thing pretty quickly?? So they already "understand" what is of expected of them "before" I put them into a postion where they need to make a "good choice." If they "choose" not to "chose" they defer to me and I get them out of there!

I couldn't imagine having to deal with 116 lbs of out control WL GSD in front of people and hoping I could indeed "distract him with treats???" That did not strike me as sensible ... so I never tried. That does not mean it can't work ... but it's certainly nothing I'd ever do or recommend to others.

On the other hand ...ME, you know ... I share his "Fear Period in Young Dogs" lecture all the time. :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOuwZcqnwcs

I was rolling however, when I first heard him make his "discovery" in class on the use of "treat" with dogs and "strangers." :grin2:

Flattering myself here but ... as they say "the only thing three dog trainers will agree on ... is that one of them is wrong." :p

The trainers I tend to follow also train the proper use of E-Collars and they don't use treats. Maybe I should have lead with that??

At anyrate, glad his methods worked for you and your dog ... you'll get no grief from me. :)
Well, good. I'm not here for grief, just to learn and share. I don't think my way is the only or best way, just sharing what I've found works and doesn't. Lisa Maze and ME breed Malinois. I don't believe she is one of his students. She is certainly no novice and is a very reputable trainer.
 

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Chip I have to disagree with one thing you said up there: people misusing food and rewarding wrong behavior and creating overly excited, out of control dogs (paraphrase). The most common mistake I see people make with food is that they don't teach the dog to work independently of the food -make the dog reliant on the food-
I don't think the "distinction" of using treats for training and working with "food" for training was ever clearly defined bt whatever.

I've tried to explain "why I do what I do" my results and why I drew the conclusions I did. :)

But to engage in a broad "debate" over "how and what people can do wrong with the use of food or treats" and who's seen more problems created which way??? Is beyond the scope of anything even I am willing to tackle. I mean I can't really argue with what you've seen and your conclusions?? :)

My goals are pretty simple "don't" be acting like a Fool Dog" and I thought my means for "achieving" that were pretty "simple" and "uncontroversial???" also?? But "apparently" not???

Only my "first" "GSD" ever really challenged me and that was with behaviors, I'd never seen and I still solved the H/A thing with what I'd already knew.

Beyond him, I had to do rescue work to find dogs with "issues" and I still did the same "simple" things and they still work.

To date only one dog out of many was not getting with the "Walk on a SLL, properly in less than four minutes thing."

A small "Pitty" with a huge head. Not getting with the program! He actually did the sit and not gonna move thing??? We worked through that, 3 minutes maybe. The the rear up and fight thing another 3 minutes. So already longer than it had taken me in the past with several dogs??

Then finally we go ... and then he darts across my legs changing sides?? Not a dog I wanted to be banging into to force a change of direction with on first encounter. Most likely had I been able to continue working with him, I would have switched to a 15 foot line ie "KMODT" but ... that 10 minute session was it wth Mr Pitty ... to bad. :(

The owner did not really care and was good with being dragged around ... he had two more just like that one at home so for him ... all dogs do that ... whatever ... I still had fun. :)


I have absolutely seen pure positive trainers use toys as rewards and create out of control dogs, no boundaries, just wild adrenaline.
LOL ... the "P" word ... not "even" going there. But yeah ... I concur. :grin2:
 

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Well, good. I'm not here for grief, just to learn and share. I don't think my way is the only or best way, just sharing what I've found works and doesn't. Lisa Maze and ME breed Malinois. I don't believe she is one of his students. She is certainly no novice and is a very reputable trainer.
Aww the Mal's ... I find them intriguing!

A Mal and a Boxer would be a fun combo!! But now ... "I Know" ... rabbits can break towards the highway also!! Gotta ponder that one casue I'm not eager to put my "Rabbit Protocol" to the test again. :p
 

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Training using only pressure and adversives is just as bad as using rewards only and no adversives.I think most of us want our dogs to obey happily and enthusiastically.A dog that has been conditioned to expect something wonderful when he obeys.Something unpleasant when he doesn't obey.
What kind of relationship and bond would you have with your dog if he spends his life simply avoiding pressure and adversives?Might as well have a robot dog:)
 
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