Do you incorporate treats into your ecollar training? My instructor said itll cause them to be dependant. What are your thoughts?
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Yes but ... "Working for "Food" and rewarding "good/appropriate" behaviour with "treats" are two diffrent things.]I don't think food causes them to become dependant if you do it right. Food can be a great motivator, it can be a great tool to explain something to a dog.
So....I was trying to make a vague distinction about how you can use food to lure a dog into a behavior as a teaching method. It is easy to fade out the lure quickly.Yes but ... "Working for "Food" and rewarding "good/appropriate" behaviour with "treats" are two diffrent things.
Using food rewards in training is a great way to implement +R in operant conditioning. I understand that sometimes a "Good Boy" is enough, but if the food reward is higher value, the chance that the behavior will be repeated is higher.Couple of things ... first "treats" and "rewards" are not necessarily the same thing. Ruling out "puppies," in general the "overuse" or "incorrect" use of "treats" which for "JQP" typically means a "cookie" can easily lead to "too much excitement" or the giving of "treats" for the wrong behaviour. A lot of trainers don't use "treats" ie "cookies," a simple "good boy/girl" and call it day is "good enough."
And for "me" a dog has to "prove" they deserve that. I don't reward a dog for "not acting like fool" "I" "expect that." For "me" not getting a "correction" is "reward enough."
To "me" the "E- Collar" is irrelevant to the question ...an "E-Collar" is just a correction by other means. I'm not big on the whole "distract and treat thing??" I prefer a dog learn to freaking "deal with it." I don't get a "treat" for not acting like a "fool" why should my dog?? So your "Trainer" may not be "conventional" but he's not alone.
LOL, yet again I'm "that guy" out there kicking over sacred cows in the "Dog Park and stuff. :grin2:
Oh ... understood ...the "shaping a behaviour" and lurking into postion thing. The "heel postion" comes to mind after a recall. I've never "asked" for that.Using food rewards in training is a great way to implement +R in operant conditioning. I understand that sometimes a "Good Boy" is enough, but if the food reward is higher value, the chance that the behavior will be repeated is higher.
Many behaviors can be trained and proofed with an e-collar. Not just "Don't act like a fool."
ME's business partner is more than good enough! The "Top Guy" can't do everything and that's why they "Train" other trainers. I'll not try and tell "you" that what you were taught can't work??? That would be pointless as well as silly.When using an e collar, which isn't often, I always reward when I get the desired behavior/action. Either a treat or a 'good girl' as taught to me by Michael Ellis' business partner.
Well, good. I'm not here for grief, just to learn and share. I don't think my way is the only or best way, just sharing what I've found works and doesn't. Lisa Maze and ME breed Malinois. I don't believe she is one of his students. She is certainly no novice and is a very reputable trainer.ME's business partner is more than good enough! The "Top Guy" can't do everything and that's why they "Train" other trainers. I'll not try and tell "you" that what you were taught can't work??? That would be pointless as well as silly.
Most likely, if I worked "one on one" with one of his disciples ... even I would be impressed. I only single him out because I heard how he address the exact same situation I deal with differently.
Elevator dog was his example and he was explaining,how when the door opens ... you distract the dog (from dogs) and treat,treat treat. Well ... what happens if the dog won't take treats??? Hopefully there is a "viable" Plan B??? I don't know, I never heard him answer the "what if my dog won't take treats, questions there??"
I don't do a "Plan B" I just look/work for "Calm" dogs. And you don't need to work with 100's or 1000's of dogs to know what "calm looks like." The dog I work with seem to get the "Calm" thing pretty quickly?? So they already "understand" what is of expected of them "before" I put them into a postion where they need to make a "good choice." If they "choose" not to "chose" they defer to me and I get them out of there!
I couldn't imagine having to deal with 116 lbs of out control WL GSD in front of people and hoping I could indeed "distract him with treats???" That did not strike me as sensible ... so I never tried. That does not mean it can't work ... but it's certainly nothing I'd ever do or recommend to others.
On the other hand ...ME, you know ... I share his "Fear Period in Young Dogs" lecture all the time. :
I was rolling however, when I first heard him make his "discovery" in class on the use of "treat" with dogs and "strangers." :grin2:
Flattering myself here but ... as they say "the only thing three dog trainers will agree on ... is that one of them is wrong."
The trainers I tend to follow also train the proper use of E-Collars and they don't use treats. Maybe I should have lead with that??
At anyrate, glad his methods worked for you and your dog ... you'll get no grief from me.
I don't think the "distinction" of using treats for training and working with "food" for training was ever clearly defined bt whatever.Chip I have to disagree with one thing you said up there: people misusing food and rewarding wrong behavior and creating overly excited, out of control dogs (paraphrase). The most common mistake I see people make with food is that they don't teach the dog to work independently of the food -make the dog reliant on the food-
LOL ... the "P" word ... not "even" going there. But yeah ... I concur. :grin2:I have absolutely seen pure positive trainers use toys as rewards and create out of control dogs, no boundaries, just wild adrenaline.
Aww the Mal's ... I find them intriguing!Well, good. I'm not here for grief, just to learn and share. I don't think my way is the only or best way, just sharing what I've found works and doesn't. Lisa Maze and ME breed Malinois. I don't believe she is one of his students. She is certainly no novice and is a very reputable trainer.