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Discussion Starter #1
Hey I was just wondering if any experienced gsd owners can help with this.

Over the last couple of weeks my 9 month old pup has been retching white stuff (no food just what appears to be bile) he also had diarrhea. We went to the vet and he got tablets. They didn't help so we took him back. He then had to stay in over night have x rays and blood tests to see if anything was stuck (they couldn't see anything on the xray) so we got more tablets and took him home.

He really perked up and got back to his normal self (still only being fed rice and chicken and plain scrambled egg).

He's lasted 4 days and the retching started again this morning (5:50 am ?)

Does anyone have any idea what we could do to help this or what is causing it? Or is it a trip back to the vet?

Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #2
His stomach is bubbling like mad, so loud. I tried to give him the diarrhea medicine paste but he just retched and brought it back up in a froth. Ah man poor guy. Think I'll have to take him to the vet again and he was doing so well :(

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Vet. Days of diarrhea is not cool. Is he drinking?

I do the rice and chicken, but generally if the dog is in good health overall I like to do a fast first. It empties out the stomach completely and gives them a chance to purge whatever caused the upset completely. Then I start with small meals every few hours as the tummy tolerates.

I'm sure you went over this with your vet but you need to go back to when this started and list everywhere you took your pup, and everything he ate. Check any dog food and treats that you have for possible contamination and think of anyone that may have had access to feed him anything, anything at all.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
He's been on rice and chicken the last week, yesterday and the day before I added a handful of his kibble in. I'll switch go back to plain rice again. I was just worried that he was losing weight having only eating rice for a week.

He had no problems with his kibble for 6 months so I don't suppose it's that. We've kept a really close eye on him the last week or so to make sure he hasn't been eating things (he's fond of chewing on stones, soil, bark, twigs) but I haven't seen him eat any of those recently.

I'm considering swapping him onto a kibble for sensitive stomachs. In the mean time I'll call the vet.

Oh and yes he is still drinking. He was perfectly fine yesterday, had an appetite, played with us and his toys quite a bit and seemed really happy and back to normal. Then this morning he's back to being ill, it's horrible. Thought we were out the woods.

Thanks for replying :)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Just had to inspect some poop. It's like jelly, not a little but like the whole thing is just hard to pick up cos the the jelly like texture ? my vets is shut today so I can't even ring them. I'll feed plain rice today and ring them tomorrow, if he shows signs of deterioration I'll take him to a different vets. I'm really concerned that it's an obstruction of some sort of soft material that didn't shows on the x ray which would mean surgery.

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A lot of dogs (especially as puppies), will throw up bile early in the morning because of an empty stomach. It is possible that the retching and throwing up is a different issue from a diarrhea. Try feeding him a snack before bedtime, often that fixes the issue.

As for the diarrhea - agree with Sabis mom - ongoing diarrhea is a concern in such a young pup. Hope the new vet can help.
 

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Our pup would on occasion wretch up a small amount of bile in the early morning as castlemaid said due to empty stomach and a snack before bedtime will help. I noticed if I fed him his dinner to early in the evening and he would wretch up a bit of bile the next morning. So I would feed him his dinner a little later in the evening and made sure the next day he had a early morning breakfast with a snack in between breakfast and dinner prevented the wrenching of bile.
On going diarrhea is not normal - is there something your pup is eating or getting into he should not be.
 

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I just wanted add many times signs of obstruction are lethargy, vomiting and not eating and drinking. It sounds like your pup ate something that irritated his system. I'm not a vet though. I hope your pup is feeling better soon and you get some answers from your vet.
 

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What kind of kibble are you feeding him. Rosko had a pretty bad bout of diarrhea and upset stomach at around 5-6 months. My vet told me that kibble companies can change ingredients and don't have to make it public unless they leave changes for more than 6 months. Some less quality companies will occasionally switch to lower quality ingredients and then switch back in 5 months to make a buck. I switched to Fromm grain free and have never had an issue since.
 

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Also I do agree with the 1 day no food. Then boiled chicken, rice, and pumpkin for 3-5 days and then add back in whatever kibble slowly. If you change kibble don't bother mixing with the old kibble. Just introduce after the 3-5 days.
 

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My dogs would do this occasionally and the vet suggested Pepcid - generic is fine as well - 25 mg. - worked like a charm.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Update: he's been on rice and chicken for two weeks, everytime we try to reintroduce kibble he seems to get bad again. I've decided to swap his kibble (slowly) to a white fish and potatoe recipe, it's a high end brand so I'm guessing it should be good quality.

He still isn't better, he looks sad all the time, some days are worse than others but he just isn't as happy or mischievous as he was a few weeks ago. He's 10 months old so he should still be goofing around.

I'm going to take him back to the vet, hopefully today. I don't want them to operate though as I don't think he has an obstruction (he's passes poo fine) but I'm just at a loss of what to do now. He's already had two lots of tablets and they clearly haven't worked.

I've suspected worms of late. I've turned into a poop inspector much to my displeasure! But it has to be done. Half the poo is hard and normal and the other half if soft and orange/pink (not blood that I can tell) with, what I thought was like jello/grease but there's bits of weird string looking things in his poop, but it's not a solid string cos I've squashed them in the bag when inspecting. That made me think worms but surely the vet could diagnose that 2 weeks ago before doing an xray?

I dunno, I'm at a loss :( poo guy. Wish he was better

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I immediately thought Colitis when you described the poop--with #1 being high up there.


Common Causes of Colitis in Dogs
  1. Parasites: Whipworms, hookworms and giardia are two internal parasites that can irritate and inflame the intestine. Be sure your dog is appropriately and thoroughly tested and treated for parasites.
  2. Dietary Indiscretion or Foreign Body Colitis: Dogs that eat a lot of grass can develop acute colitis from the irritation of indigestible fiber contained in the stalks and stems. Some dogs have a condition known a pica-they eat non-food materials. These dogs are prone to occasional, acute colitis.
  3. Bacteria: Salmonella and Campylobacter bacteria can cause colitis. Salmonella contamination prompted a pet food recall in 2008.
  4. Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD): A condition in which the body's own protective cells invade and inflame the intestinal wall can cause colitis in dogs. The cause of IBD is unknown, but food allergens may play a role. Begin providing a hypoallergenic food that contains lamb, duck or venison. If you have an overweight dog, dieting to achieve a healthy weight is helpful, too. Eliminate corn, soy and wheat from your dog's diet and do not feed any spicy, fatty or processed human foods.
  5. Irritable Bowel Syndrome: IBS is often stress related although it can be neurological in origin also. Provide a safe and supportive environment for your pet, and be sure he gets adequate exercise. A high-quality dog food that contains a named meat as its first ingredient may alleviate some of the symptoms of IBS. Consider a commerical pet food specifically for dog diabetes; these foods are formulated with extra fiber and some types of colitis respond well to these recipes.
  6. Antibiotics: A temporary bout of colitis after a course of antibiotics is common because the beneficial bacteria in the gut die along with the infectious agents for which the drug was prescribed. Probiotics or yogurt can restore the flora and resolve this type of colitis.
  7. Rat Poisoning: Certain poisons can cause bloody diarrhea. If you suspect that your dog has ingested a poison, contact your veterinarian or poison control hotline. Induce vomiting if possible and administer activated charcoal.
The observable hallmarks of canine colitis include one or more of the following clinical signs:
  • Profuse watery diarrhea, usually containing fresh red blood and mucus
  • Semi-formed feces
  • Passage of frequent, small amounts of liquid to semi-formed fecal matter
  • Painful defecation
  • Straining to defecate; especially prolonged after defecation (tenesmus; may be mistaken for constipation)
  • Squatting to defecate
  • Passage of gas (flatulence)
  • Vomiting
  • Lack of appetite (inappetence; anorexia; not common)
  • Weight loss (also not common)
 

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YES, you need to take him back to the vet for testing.

From CanineJournal.com
Pink or Purple Dog Poop

Anything that resembles raspberry jam (sorry to ruin your toast) could indicate hemorrhagic gastroenteritis (HGE). A large number of dogs die each year from HGE but most will recover with prompt treatment. Seek emergency medical attention.
Grey or Greasy-looking Poop

Doggy-doo that appears fatty, glistens or comes out in large, soft amounts could indicate Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency or EPI. Commonly referred to as maldigestion, EPI is a disease in which the pancreas does not produce the necessary enzymes to digest fat. EPI is treatable, so see your vet.

Orange Dog Poop

It could indicate a liver issue or biliary disease, or it could just mean that your dog’s poop moved too quickly through the GI tract to pick up the bile which changes poop to the normal brown color we expect. If your dog has orange diarrhea, contact your vet.


Worms: pethealthnetwork.com


  • Adult Hookworms and Whipworms attach themselves to or burrow into a dog’s intestinal lining, so they are probably less likely to be passed intact with the dog’s stool. If you do see them, whipworms are only about 2-3 inches long and much of that length is a long thread-like tail1. Hookworms would be even harder to see, as they are very small, measuring only about ½ to ¾ inch long and not even a millimeter across2. If whipworms or hookworms are seen in the stools it generally indicates a heavy infestation.
  • On the other hand, Roundworms (Toxocara sp. And Toxascaris sp.) are very common parasites that may be vomited or passed in stool in heavily infected dogs. These worms are, as you might imagine from their name, round like spaghetti and sometimes several inches long3.
  • Tapeworms (Diphilobothrium sp, Taenia sp, and less commonly Diphilobothrium sp, Echiniocccus sp, and Spirometra sp.) may also be visible in your dog’s stool. Sometimes long bits of the tapeworm will break off and pass out looking more like a long, flat, segmented ribbon but most typically, individual segments are excreted. When still fresh, those segments are short and flat and often moving, but after they dry, they look more like a grain of rice.
Moms:)
 

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Just a little FYI.

Document all you do, what you do, how long, symptoms etc. Sounds like you might have a complicated road ahead of trying to figure this out. A vet, worth their weight, should find documentation helpful.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
He's currently at the vets now. He's had a scan on his belly which has shown the intestines are inflamed throughout but on the outside not the inside. We're waiting for blood test results for different things to come back to try and pin point what the cause is. He may need a biopsy.

He was first showing signs of diarrhea 3 weeks ago, I took him to the vets on the 4th day when rice didn't help. We got antibiotics then but he was still ill a week later so he went back. That was when he had his first x ray and we got sent home with more antibiotics (along with other tablets to settle the sickness). A week later he still isn't better so he's back there now. I've tried natural bio yogurt, I think the issue is too severe for that to help. I also think he has roundworms even though he's wormed up to date. The vet is going to treat that while he's in there.

My vet seems to be leaning towards an enzyme deficiency but we're waiting on the results of the bloods. She said a couple of things that it could be are all treatable so that's a good thing.

Thanks for all your input. It means a lot. It's worrying having a sick doggy as I imagine you've all experienced.

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Have you let him have rawhide chews?????

He could have a piece of one in his stomach or gut.....

2 things that I have seen with white foam vomit/feces - rawhide chew related or bloat - bloat obviously not the issue here


Lee
 

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well that is what I was looking for ------- courses of antibiotics ---- which are necessary for some things - but vastly over used and inappropriately prescribed .

We are running out of antibiotics that are effective.

Recent microbiome summit had some very interesting and very scary facts.

Rice and boiled chicken -- mechanical block (bulk) and protein (but no enzymes , no pre- no probiotics)

PROBIOITICS

here is a medical report - copied from the World Journal of Gastroenterology ,
which covers IBD , IBS , etc -- canines - with an eye to GSD

"In veterinary medicine, chronic enteropathies with intestinal inflammation are commonly seen in dogs and cats. The response to treatment is used to allow for distinction of different types of enteropathies, such as food-responsive diarrhea, antibiotic-responsive diarrhea, and steroid-responsive diarrhea. Idiopathic IBD is a subgroup of enteropathies and it is defined as an inflammation of the GI tract with persistent or recurrent GI signs due to unknown cause[48]. To diagnose IBD, known causes for GI inflammation need to be excluded. Therefore, empirical treatments are applied sequentially, starting with a dietary trial, followed by antibiotic therapy if there is a lack of response to diet, and finally, treatment with anti-inflammatory drugs, if response to previous treatments was inadequate. Similarly to human IBD, the exact pathogenesis of canine/feline IBD is unknown, but is suspected to be the result of an abnormal interplay between an altered intestinal microbiota, an underlying genetic susceptibility of the host, and dietary and/or environmental factors[48]. Consequently, several studies have revealed possible underlying susceptibilities in the innate immune system of dogs and cats with chronic GI inflammation. These include altered differential expression of Toll-like receptors (TLR)-2 and 4[25,49], single nucleotide polymorphisms that lead to hyper-responsiveness of TLR-5 to flagellin in German Shepherd dogs (GSDs)[22], and decreased expression of CD11c(+) cells in dogs with IBD[50]. There is also well known anecdotal evidence that certain breeds are more prone to chronic GI inflammation. In addition to GSDs, which have been shown to possess polymorphisms in the TLR-4 and TLR-5 genes that are significantly associated with IBD[51], other dog breeds such as Rottweiler, Border Collie, Boxer dog, and Weimaraner have been shown to possess increased risks for developing IBD[23]. Of those breeds, breed specific studies evaluating the association between mucosa-adherent microbiota and intestinal inflammation were performed only in GSDs and Boxer dogs. In GSDs with chronic intestinal inflammation, the mucosa-adherent microbiota were analyzed in small intestinal brush samples and showed a significant over-representation of Bacilli and Erysipelotrichi when compared to healthy Greyhound dogs[6]. Interestingly, this is somewhat different to the results observed in other studies where more diverse populations of dogs with chronic intestinal inflammation were evaluated. In these studies, the most frequently observed changes in the mucosa-adherent microbiota in the small intestine were increases in members of the Proteobacteria, especially Escherichia coli-like organisms[9] or Pseudomonas[8], with concurrent decreases of members of Firmicutes and Bacteroidetes. In a more recent study evaluating mucosa-adherent microbiota in the duodenum of dogs with IBD by next-generation sequencing, the proportions of Fusobacteria, Bacteroidaceae, Prevotellaceae, and Clostridiales were significantly increased in healthy dogs. In contrast, specific bacterial genera within Proteobacteria, including Diaphorobacter and Acinetobacter, were either more abundant or more frequently identified in dogs with IBD[7]. One study evaluated specifically the presence of Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis in duodenal biopsies of dogs with IBD or intestinal neoplasia by qPCR and reported that 19% of diseased dogs were PCR positive for this organism[52]. Less published information is available about the mucosa-adherent microbiota of cats with IBD. While sequencing methods have not yet been reported for the characterization of feline IBD, a study using fluorescent in situ hybridization (FISH) has revealed an increase in Enterobacteriaceae in duodenal biopsies of cats with IBD[10]. Furthermore, a relationship between increased bacterial numbers and the severity of histological inflammation was observed[10].

Several studies have evaluated the fecal microbiota in dogs and cats with chronic GI disease. In one study, cats with IBD had lower FISH counts for total bacteria, Bacteroides spp., and Bifidobacterium spp., but higher counts of Desulfovibrio spp. compared to healthy cats[53]. Desulfovibrio spp. are a sulfate-reducing bacterial group and able to produce hydrogen sulfides, which may be associated with the pathogenesis of feline IBD. However, another study did not identify significant differences in FISH counts between cats with IBD and controls, although the same bacterial groups were targeted[54]. A recent study utilized 454-pyrosequencing of 16S rRNA genes to describe changes in fecal microbiota in cats with chronic diarrhea and their response to dietary modifications[29]. Several bacterial groups correlated with improved fecal scores after therapeutic response to diet. Those included Slackia spp., Campylobacter upsaliensis, Enterobacteriaceae Raoultella spp., Collinsella spp., and unidentified genera within Clostridiales and Lachnospiraceae[29].

More data about the fecal microbiota are available in dogs. In one study, fecal samples from healthy dogs, dogs with acute non-hemorrhagic diarrhea, dogs with acute hemorrhagic diarrhea, and dogs with active or therapeutically controlled idiopathic IBD were analyzed by sequencing of the 16S rRNA gene[14]. Dogs with acute diarrhea, especially those with acute hemorrhagic diarrhea, had the most profound changes in bacterial groups in their microbiome. Dogs with acute hemorrhagic diarrhea had significant decreases in Blautia, Ruminococcaceae including Faecalibacterium, and Turicibacter spp., and significant increases in genus Sutterella and C. perfringens compared to healthy dogs. In another recent study, the fecal microbiome of healthy dogs, dogs with chronic enteropathies, and dogs with acute hemorrhagic diarrhea was evaluated by qPCR assays for selected bacterial groups[55]. The most pronounced changes were decreases in Faecalibacterium spp., Turicibacter spp., and Ruminococcaceae in CE and AHD. E. coli and C. perfringens were significantly increased in CE and AHD[55]. Especially Faecalibacterium spp. is an important group that frequently appears depleted in canine GI disease. This has been confirmed in another study evaluating the fecal microbiota of dogs with idiopathic IBD, in which Faecalibacterium spp. was the major bacterial group decreased in diseased dogs[21]. Noteworthy, Faecalibacterium spp. correlated with improvement in clinical activity index, suggesting that Faecalibacterium spp. may be important for canine GI health, and also may be useful as a monitoring marker for improvement of fecal dysbiosis[14,21].

While the above discussed studies have reported changes in microbial groups in GI disease of dogs and cats, only limited information is available about the metabolic consequences that are associated with this dysbiosis, as currently no comprehensive functional studies have been reported in dogs or cats. Alterations in the composition of intestinal microbiota are thought to be an important factor in the pathogenesis of chronic GI diseases. It can be hypothesized that the observed microbiome changes may lead to altered intestinal barrier function, damage to the intestinal brush border and enterocytes, an increased competition for nutrients and vitamins, and to an increased deconjugation of bile acids. Of interest is that commonly depleted groups in GI disease are Lachnospiraceae, Ruminococcaceae, and Faecalibacterium. These bacterial groups, important producers of SCFA, may play an important role in maintenance of gastrointestinal health, as their depletion leads to decreased production of SCFA (e.g., butyrate, acetate), which may impair the capability of the host to down-regulate aberrant intestinal immune response. The importance of some of these bacterial groups that are depleted in IBD have recently been demonstrated in humans. For example, Faecalibacterium prausnitzii is consistently reduced in human IBD and this bacterium has been shown to secrete metabolites with anti-inflammatory properties, thereby down-regulating interleukin (IL)-12 and interferon gamma and increasing IL-10 secretions[56]. Disturbances may result in a dysregulation of adaptive immune responses, and lead to inflammation and/or reduced activity against infection. Also, some bacteria produce various toxic agents such as ammonia, D-lactate, endotoxin (LPS), or exotoxin (enterotoxin), and compete for vitamins or other nutrients. Consequently, depletions in serum vitamin B12 concentrations and also increases in serum concentrations of D-lactate are potential consequences of intestinal dysbiosis in cats[57]. However, more comprehensive metabolomics studies are needed in companion animals to elucidate the consequences of the dysbiosis observed in GI disease.

Invasive and adherent bacteria
A specific form of colitis occurs in Boxer dogs[58] and occasionally also in French Bulldogs[59]. This disease is termed granulomatous colitis. Microbiota analysis based on sequencing of 16S rRNA genes in combination with FISH has revealed invasive bacteria in the colonic mucosa of Boxer dogs with granulomatous colitis. Based on comparative 16S rRNA gene analysis, these bacteria have high phylogenetic similarity to Escherichia coli (E. coli) and Shigella. In situ analysis with 16S rRNA gene based FISH probes against E. coli showed multifocal clusters of invasive bacteria within macrophages in the colonic mucosa[58]. The eradication of these invasive E. coli in Boxer dogs and French Bulldogs with granulomatous colitis correlates with clinical remission, inferring a causal relationship between these bacteria and the disease[59]. Of interest is that these observed phylotypes of E. coli isolated from Boxer dogs have high phylogenetic resemblance to E. coli associated with Crohn’s disease in humans[16,59]. The breed specific predisposition of Boxer dogs and French bulldogs to E. coli associated granulomatous colitis highly suggests the presence of a genetic susceptibility that impairs their ability to fend off adherent and invasive E. coli.

Bacteria invading the intestinal mucosa may also be part of neutrophilic IBD in other dog breeds. Due to the recognized association of granulomatous and neutrophilic IBD with invasive bacteria, specialized testing based on FISH has been developed that allows localizing the bacteria in intestinal biopsies for better guidance of treatment decisions[59].

ALTERATIONS IN FUNGAL MICROBIOTA
While bacteria are by far the most abundant constituents of the mammalian GI tract, it is now recognized that the gut harbors a highly diverse population of fungal organisms. FISH and shotgun sequencing studies of human and canine fecal DNA have estimated the abundance of fungal organisms and archaea as < 2% of total microbiota[39,60]. A recent metagenomic approach estimated that the feline GI microbiota constitutes 0.02% fungi, 0.09% archaea, and 0.09% viruses[41]. Fungi were described using pyrosequencing of the fungal 18S rRNA gene in pooled fecal samples of cats[3], with Aspergillus and Saccharomyces being the most abundant fungal genera. A study reported the prevalence and identification of fungal organisms in the small intestine of healthy dogs and dogs with chronic enteropathies[61]. The results indicated a high prevalence (up to 76.1% of dogs) and high diversity of fungal organisms in the canine duodenum. Furthermore, dogs with gastrointestinal disease harbored opportunistic fungal pathogens. A total of 51 different phylotypes were identified, with the most frequently observed phylotypes being Pichia spp., Cryptococcus spp., Candida spp., and Trichosporon spp.[61].

A recent study has characterized the fungal microbiome (mycobiome) of 19 dogs (12 healthy dogs and 7 dogs with acute diarrhea) using fungal tag-encoded FLX-Titanium amplicon pyrosequencing[62]. Five distinct fungal phyla were identified, with Ascomycota (median: 97.9% of obtained sequences) and Basidiomycota (median 1.0%) being the most abundant. A total of 219 fungal genera were identified across all 19 dogs with a median (range) of 28 (4-69) genera per sample. Candida was the most abundant genus found in dogs. However, no significant differences were observed in the relative proportions of fungal communities between healthy and diseased dogs. Therefore, additional studies are needed to elucidate the importance of fungi on intestinal health and disease of animals.

CONCLUSION
Studies using molecular approaches have provided clear evidence for alterations in microbial communities in the small and large intestine of dogs and cats with GI disorders. However, currently there is a lack of comprehensive studies evaluating the functional consequences of these alterations. A better understanding of these mechanisms will allow for the development of treatment modalities (e.g., prebiotics, probiotics, metabolites) aiming at modulating microbial communities and their produced metabolites. Anecdotal case reports have reported some success using fecal transplantation in dogs with chronic diarrhea. Results of initial studies suggest that the administration of probiotic strains can be useful in dogs with GI disease. For example, probiotic strains have shown benefits in dogs with IBD[21], puppies with acute parvoviral enteritis[63], and adult dogs with non-specific diarrhea[26,27]. In cats, probiotics strains have been shown to be beneficial in cats with chronic diarrhea[28] and stress-related diarrhea in a shelter environment[64]. However, future studies will need to evaluate how these microbial changes impact the immune and metabolic status of dogs and cats.

I have much more available and an extensive personal library for reference .


not only are the probiotics necessary --- OTHER -- ingredients which help heal tissue and the mucosal lining , and anti inflammatory action , digestive enzymes and a broad range of probiotics - considering the gut as the key to the entire body's health and well being .


not light reading -- enjoy . and no rawhide chews please
 
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