German Shepherds Forum banner

1 - 20 of 55 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,423 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello all,
This has been an ongoing problem for Gandalf, it used to be after he drank water he would throw some of it up so I started limiting and watching his water intake to make sure he wasn't gulping. His condition has gotten worse to the point where it will be mid day, (he had nothing to eat or drink recently) and he will just randomly regurgitate. He also burps ALL the time. History of stomach issues but those have been resolved... he only eats raw food & dried raw treats. He went to the vet recently and they said oh that's normal and he looks good... it's not normal. My old dogs never did this. He is literally spitting up all day (no abdominal heaving so it doesn't look like throwing up it just seems like he burps and some comes up.). Anyone dealt with something like this? Natural treatments? Should I get a second opinion?
Thanks...
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,989 Posts
Second opinion time....

Regurgitation is a different physical process from vomiting, one is "active" and one is "passive". There won't be any lead-up to regurgitation, it just happens abruptly.

Hopefully you aren't looking at a problem with his esophagus, but I'd get to a vet that is familiar with the breed's predispositions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,423 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Ugh thanks guys, I was thinking mega e too but didn't want to say it... it is definitely not vomiting it is regurgitation, there is no lead up to it. However it's always a small amount that comes up never entire meals so perhaps a mild case? I know nothing about the condition. How do they diagnose it usually? How expensive can this get?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,581 Posts
I wouldn’t panic and jump to Mega E just yet, but it’s definitely something to talk about with a vet. I had a pit bull that would regurgitate frequently. It turned out she couldn’t tolerate turkey. Once she stopped getting turkey, that was it for the regurgitating. So there are definitely things other than Mega E that could be causing this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,423 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I wouldn’t panic and jump to Mega E just yet, but it’s definitely something to talk about with a vet. I had a pit bull that would regurgitate frequently. It turned out she couldn’t tolerate turkey. Once she stopped getting turkey, that was it for the regurgitating. So there are definitely things other than Mega E that could be causing this.
Thanks GG, hoping it's not a food intolerance thing since all he gets is raw meat.... what else would I even feed him? Soybeans ? Poor pup, I've heard of mega e in pits and terriers but never in shepherds, is it becoming more common of a thing? He's always had this, wonder if it's related to all the stomach troubles and what not, maybe damage or something. Time to try out the new insurance I guess ugh...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,178 Posts
Mega E is more common in GSD's than you think. Two of our local GSD breed specific rescues has several case a year up for adoption. I don't have personal experience with Mega E but it seems with a little effort it can be managed quite easily. I'm thinking some sort of imaging of the esophagus is need to diagnose along with symptoms.
Is Gandalf only regurging water? Or is it food as well?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,884 Posts
Gandalf said " since all he gets is raw meat.... what else would I even feed him? Soybeans ?"

if this is all that the dog gets then his diet is unbalanced and deficient. He is getting maybe one third of what a dog needs.
Maybe less.

Soybeans? where is that coming from?

Gandalf "to the point where it will be mid day, (he had nothing to eat or drink recently) "

but if he hadn't anything taken in orally for some hours (?) then it would not be regurgitation

if it is an acid reflux then the dog needs some hydrochloricc acid to INCREASE stomach acidity

Betaine HCL is one resource , aermented apple cider vinegar is also of benefit.

If my memory serves me , this dog has had digestive issues. Another cause for gerd or reflux , paired with too low
stomach acid , is bacterial overgrowth of some type.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,423 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Mega E is more common in GSD's than you think. Two of our local GSD breed specific rescues has several case a year up for adoption. I don't have personal experience with Mega E but it seems with a little effort it can be managed quite easily. I'm thinking some sort of imaging of the esophagus is need to diagnose along with symptoms.
Is Gandalf only regurging water? Or is it food as well?
Oh wow. It's not just water, it's like spittle. Hard to explain... definitely not vomit... but not just water. It's like he goes to burp and it comes up. Has little food particles in it.. he does this all day, as frequently as every few minutes to once an hour depending on his activity levels. We've definitely noticed it getting worse over time. It's not bile as I've seen that before and it doesn't have the right color, smell, etc.. and he has had food.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,423 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Gandalf said " since all he gets is raw meat.... what else would I even feed him? Soybeans ?"

if this is all that the dog gets then his diet is unbalanced and deficient. He is getting maybe one third of what a dog needs.
Maybe less.

Soybeans? where is that coming from?

Gandalf "to the point where it will be mid day, (he had nothing to eat or drink recently) "

but if he hadn't anything taken in orally for some hours (?) then it would not be regurgitation

if it is an acid reflux then the dog needs some hydrochloricc acid to INCREASE stomach acidity

Betaine HCL is one resource , aermented apple cider vinegar is also of benefit.

If my memory serves me , this dog has had digestive issues. Another cause for gerd or reflux , paired with too low
stomach acid , is bacterial overgrowth of some type.
What is he lacking from a balanced raw diet? If my memory serves me I got a lot of flack once for giving him a carrot mentioned on here. I was joking about soy beans, because what else is he supposed to eat... he's a dog. He's already on novel proteins due to allergies so I'm running out of options. Explain to me because I'm just describing what I'm seeing... it'll be hours after his breakfast and he will just stand up and unexpectantly liquid/food mix comes projecting out of his mouth.. what is it then? Is this normal ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,178 Posts
What is he lacking from a balanced raw diet? If my memory serves me I got a lot of flack once for giving him a carrot mentioned on here. I was joking about soy beans, because what else is he supposed to eat... he's a dog. He's already on novel proteins due to allergies so I'm running out of options. Explain to me because I'm just describing what I'm seeing... it'll be hours after his breakfast and he will just stand up and unexpectantly liquid/food mix comes projecting out of his mouth.. what is it then? Is this normal ?
^bolded does not sound like classic Mega E to me. With Mega E it's my understanding that the regurg happens rather quickly after eating and is the undigested meal. This sounds more like GERD. As a human with GERD I can say that I can be fine and then bend over to pick something up off the floor and suddenly have a small amount of stomach contents coming up in my mouth (ok...a few times I've outright regurged on the floor if I just had a liquid). Or once I'm upright from bending forward will notice immediate, intense heartburn from the acid moving up my esophagus. Water coming back up is common with GERD for me.
So if it turns out to be GERD it could be food related or just that he needs to balance is stomach acid. That isn't the end of the world. I know he has a lot of food issues (my Ziva does too). But it could be something as simple as a supplement that needs to be given separately from meals or be changed to a different brand. Smaller more frequent meals. Don't loose your mind over this just yet. Have a chat with your vet or holistic vet first.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,423 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
^bolded does not sound like classic Mega E to me. With Mega E it's my understanding that the regurg happens rather quickly after eating and is the undigested meal. This sounds more like GERD. As a human with GERD I can say that I can be fine and then bend over to pick something up off the floor and suddenly have a small amount of stomach contents coming up in my mouth (ok...a few times I've outright regurged on the floor if I just had a liquid). Or once I'm upright from bending forward will notice immediate, intense heartburn from the acid moving up my esophagus. Water coming back up is common with GERD for me.
So if it turns out to be GERD it could be food related or just that he needs to balance is stomach acid. That isn't the end of the world. I know he has a lot of food issues (my Ziva does too). But it could be something as simple as a supplement that needs to be given separately from meals or be changed to a different brand. Smaller more frequent meals. Don't loose your mind over this just yet. Have a chat with your vet or holistic vet first.
Thank you S, my husband also has GERD and he thought it looked exactly like what happens to him! I had just never heard of dogs having acid reflux or what could even cause that.. I wonder if it is just as hard to treat in dogs? My husband has been taking medicine for it his entire life and still struggles with the symptoms, and I know it increases your risk of esophageal cancer, etc. Thanks sounds like we should definitely be getting another opinion on it so hopefully we will have some answers to share here soon.. poor guy has just been through so much, wish he would be feeling 100% one day!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,309 Posts
^bolded does not sound like classic Mega E to me. With Mega E it's my understanding that the regurg happens rather quickly after eating and is the undigested meal. .

My boy has Mega E. It can take a while for the food to come out. The food on a Mega E dog doesn't go down and it sits in a pockets caused by the flimsy esophagus. Depending on the size of the pocket or how many they may have it differs. We blend his food so it comes up smooth like a milk shake. On my guy I have had things come out months later. yes, months. Not always food that comes out. We get surprises, socks, a small corn cob and other things.

If by chance the dog has Mega, raw may not be a good idea. That is a whole nother discussion. You need to have you dog xrayed in the throat. Barium is not needed even thu your vet will recommend it. Mega E is very noticeable on a normal xray. Very non evasive getting the xray and a fast answer for Mega E.


Here is a good definition of Mega

Megaesophagus - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,215 Posts
Another thing that's weird about Mega-E is that the pockets aren't "fixed" in size in a given dog -- they can change. They can be enormous, and then shrink down to barely there in the same dog over time, depending on other aggravating conditions and/or meds. We had a dog in rescue who started out with the biggest pocket our vet had ever seen (she described it as looking like a "sock"), but it decreased dramatically over time.

I would have the dog xrayed at least. We have had a lot of these dogs in rescue, and they're sometimes a lot of variation in how the disease presents. We do see pockets usually on an xray, but we tend to get more info from a barium study, showing the contours/severity, and helping to determine whether a dog is a surgical candidate or not (or even ruling it out, when something else is going on, or showing what the pockets look like). I agree with starting with a simple xray, and making further decisions based on what it shows. Either way, not knowing is dangerous, as aspiration pneumonia is what kills many mega-E dogs, and good management of the condition is how you avoid aspiration pneumonia.

We either do blended kibble (with water) or The Honest Kitchen for our rescue Mega-E dogs. Not all kibbles blend well, so that's a whole other journey!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,423 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
My boy has Mega E. It can take a while for the food to come out. The food on a Mega E dog doesn't go down and it sits in a pockets caused by the flimsy esophagus. Depending on the size of the pocket or how many they may have it differs. We blend his food so it comes up smooth like a milk shake. On my guy I have had things come out months later. yes, months. Not always food that comes out. We get surprises, socks, a small corn cob and other things.

If by chance the dog has Mega, raw may not be a good idea. That is a whole nother discussion. You need to have you dog xrayed in the throat. Barium is not needed even thu your vet will recommend it. Mega E is very noticeable on a normal xray. Very non evasive getting the xray and a fast answer for Mega E.


Here is a good definition of Mega

Megaesophagus - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!
Thank you so much for the helpful insight!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,423 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Another thing that's weird about Mega-E is that the pockets aren't "fixed" in size in a given dog -- they can change. They can be enormous, and then shrink down to barely there in the same dog over time, depending on other aggravating conditions and/or meds. We had a dog in rescue who started out with the biggest pocket our vet had ever seen (she described it as looking like a "sock"), but it decreased dramatically over time.

I would have the dog xrayed at least. We have had a lot of these dogs in rescue, and they're sometimes a lot of variation in how the disease presents. We do see pockets usually on an xray, but we tend to get more info from a barium study, showing the contours/severity, and helping to determine whether a dog is a surgical candidate or not (or even ruling it out, when something else is going on, or showing what the pockets look like). I agree with starting with a simple xray, and making further decisions based on what it shows. Either way, not knowing is dangerous, as aspiration pneumonia is what kills many mega-E dogs, and good management of the condition is how you avoid aspiration pneumonia.

We either do blended kibble (with water) or The Honest Kitchen for our rescue Mega-E dogs. Not all kibbles blend well, so that's a whole other journey!
Thank you Magwart for help! Sounds like we shouldn't wait around on this one. Any idea how much a typical x ray & barium study costs? Our vets around here like to rip us off.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,884 Posts
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
Gandalf said " since all he gets is raw meat.... what else would I even feed him? Soybeans ?"

if this is all that the dog gets then his diet is unbalanced and deficient. He is getting maybe one third of what a dog needs.
Maybe less.

Soybeans? where is that coming from?

Gandalf "to the point where it will be mid day, (he had nothing to eat or drink recently) "

but if he hadn't anything taken in orally for some hours (?) then it would not be regurgitation

if it is an acid reflux then the dog needs some hydrochloricc acid to INCREASE stomach acidity

Betaine HCL is one resource , aermented apple cider vinegar is also of benefit.

If my memory serves me , this dog has had digestive issues. Another cause for gerd or reflux , paired with too low
stomach acid , is bacterial overgrowth of some type.

Gandalf----
What is he lacking from a balanced raw diet? If my memory serves me I got a lot of flack once for giving him a carrot mentioned on here. I was joking about soy beans, because what else is he supposed to eat... he's a dog. He's already on novel proteins due to allergies so I'm running out of options. Explain to me because I'm just describing what I'm seeing... it'll be hours after his breakfast and he will just stand up and unexpectantly liquid/food mix comes projecting out of his mouth.. what is it then? Is this normal ?
Like
SQUIRREL!


You did say an all meat diet . What is he lacking ? I don't know . What is he getting?
Raw does not make it balanced . A carrot does not make it balanced .

I did offer what I thought might be going on and that was acid reflus/ gerd and I did offer a solution , to increase his stomach acid by giving Betaine HCL (hydrochloric) from beets.

It isn't difficult to treat in dogs --- change the terrain of the digestion .
It isn't difficult to treat in people either --- EXCEPT the general , conventional treatment is to use
ant-acids and proton pump inhibitor drugs which keep reducing stomach acid -- counter to what will solve
it .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,309 Posts
You don't need to do barium, it shows up in a normal xray. Barium if it gets in the lungs is not good. It shouldn't cost more than $200 to do a few xrays and an office visit with reading the xray.

The Diagnostic Plan

First, the megaesophagus must be diagnosed. This is done with radiographs (x-rays). If megaesophagus is not obvious on plain films, it is better not to use contrast studies with barium if possible. This is because megaesophagus patients tend to inhale or aspirate food contents that back up in their throats. This is dangerous enough when the material is simply food but if barium becomes inhaled, the body has great difficulty removing it from the lungs. Still, sometimes this is the only way to see the megaesophagus.


I will post this link again its a good read and really informative

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=189&A=604&S=1
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,581 Posts
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
Gandalf said " since all he gets is raw meat.... what else would I even feed him? Soybeans ?"

if this is all that the dog gets then his diet is unbalanced and deficient. He is getting maybe one third of what a dog needs.
Maybe less.

Soybeans? where is that coming from?

Gandalf "to the point where it will be mid day, (he had nothing to eat or drink recently) "

but if he hadn't anything taken in orally for some hours (?) then it would not be regurgitation

if it is an acid reflux then the dog needs some hydrochloricc acid to INCREASE stomach acidity

Betaine HCL is one resource , aermented apple cider vinegar is also of benefit.

If my memory serves me , this dog has had digestive issues. Another cause for gerd or reflux , paired with too low
stomach acid , is bacterial overgrowth of some type.

Gandalf----
What is he lacking from a balanced raw diet? If my memory serves me I got a lot of flack once for giving him a carrot mentioned on here. I was joking about soy beans, because what else is he supposed to eat... he's a dog. He's already on novel proteins due to allergies so I'm running out of options. Explain to me because I'm just describing what I'm seeing... it'll be hours after his breakfast and he will just stand up and unexpectantly liquid/food mix comes projecting out of his mouth.. what is it then? Is this normal ?
Like
SQUIRREL!


You did say an all meat diet . What is he lacking ? I don't know . What is he getting?
Raw does not make it balanced . A carrot does not make it balanced .

I did offer what I thought might be going on and that was acid reflus/ gerd and I did offer a solution , to increase his stomach acid by giving Betaine HCL (hydrochloric) from beets.

It isn't difficult to treat in dogs --- change the terrain of the digestion .
It isn't difficult to treat in people either --- EXCEPT the general , conventional treatment is to use
ant-acids and proton pump inhibitor drugs which keep reducing stomach acid -- counter to what will solve
it .

Carmen, if memory serves, this dog is eating commercial raw. It should be balanced.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,423 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Carmen, if memory serves, this dog is eating commercial raw. It should be balanced.
Yes you are right, he eats Instinct Raw rabbit, beef, and duck. It wasn't logistical to make homemade raw for him since we live in an area that doesn't sell duck or rabbit readily and we don't have the space to raise our own. I am curious to know why dogs with Mega E. cannot handle raw well? It's going to be so difficult for me to feed him kibble after hearing about all the recalls lately, and I've seen what raw can do for his digestive system and his coat... we want to give him the very best that we can afford, he is our best friend.
 
1 - 20 of 55 Posts
Top