[jarn]

neb is a little land shark and will tug anything he can, very persistently - which i'm thrilled with. i'm trying to raise him and learn as much as i can about maximizing drive and confidence. he is 8.5 weeks old.

so, one of the things i'm doing is i'm trying not to build bite inhibition. instead of yelping or something, i work on redirecting him onto a tug/toy.

neb came to a bbq we had a my bf's sunday b/c there was lots of people there and it's a good opportunity for him to be around a lot of people.

he stole the show, people were all wanting to spending time w/him, when i had to go to the neighbours to get some chairs, no need to put him in the crate as everyone wanted to take him, people were taking pics w/him, etc.

some people encouraged him to bite their shoes etc, and some people would yelp if he got them - i don't want either to occur, and i explained that i wanted him redirected instead.

did anyone else do something similar with their pups? how did they handle this when socializing the pups? i'm not sure people really understood that i want to build his drive, and not discourage him - just wondering what other people have done, or if i'm completely crazy (am hoping maybe to take him to a picnic this saturday, so would appreciate any suggestions).

one thing i thought was at the picnic, if i bring him, i won't have to run around getting stuff so much so i can be with him and redirect him myself more.

 

[BlackGSD]

I understand you are wanting to maximize drive and confidence, but why is it that he can't learn not to bite people?

If you want him to be a little land shark that bites everything that gets close enough to his mouth, you really should KEEP HIM AWAY FROM PEOPLE. What happens when he shredds a friend or their child. (I don't mean in a "vicious" way, but we all know how puppy teeth can shred skin.)

 

[GSD07]

Originally Posted By: BlackGSD What happens when he shredds a friend or their child.

It could be worse, he can shred a stranger who then can be very happy to go around your neighborhood with a petition.

I think even SchH people while redirecting are teaching their pups manners and don't tolerate nipping their family and friends.

 

[BlackGSD]

Originally Posted By: GSD07

Originally Posted By: BlackGSD What happens when he shredds a friend or their child.

It could be worse, he can shred a stranger who then can be very happy to go around your neighborhood with a petition.


<span style="color: #FF0000">Or they could call animal control. </span>

I think even SchH people while redirecting are teaching their pups manners and don't tolerate nipping their family and friends.

<span style="color: #CC0000">They also don't let any "Tom, **** ,or Harry" hold their puppy. By letting anyone ("friend" or not) control the puppy, you are opening him up for being disciplined in a way you probably won't like. When one of those little land sharks bites you, it is HUMAN NATURE to yell, pull back, and/or "strike back". It happens without thinking. And a "regular" person will do any or all of those things no matter what you tell them because they haven't been "programmed" not to. </span>

 

[OllieGSD]

I think you are making a huge mistake if you do not teach your dog bite inhibition. Dogs are genetically programmed w/ drive or not. It is either there or not. You can do a bit to encourage drive, but the blueprint is genetic and it is not possible to build it. It is irresponsible not to teach the dog basic manners. Keeping it's mouth of humans is rule number 1. It needs to learn how to deal w/ frustration not biting when or it wants and patience etc. or you will have a dog that will end up dangerous. It’s an 8 week old puppy - a BABY why don’t you spend time socializing, house training, having fun w/ the dog as opposed to worrying about drives etc.

 

[jarn]

OK....maybe I wasn't clear/using the wrong term. I don't tolerate him biting people - it's not okay. But I'm redirecting him rather than using other methods like yelping, and people don't seem to get that.

The people at the bbq who were encouraging him to go after shoes etc I stopped immediately, b/c that's not the behaviour I want from him and I don't encourage it - any time he goes for clothes/body parts he is redirected.

 

[GSD07]

Did everyone at the BBQ had something to redirect him to? Like a toy, stick, towel? Maybe they actually were redirecting to their shoes because they didn't want to be nipped.

I remember with Yana all those ouches and yelps were waste of time and the redirection was my only option. Also I remember how often I wasn't fast enough and her teeth closed on my hand instead of on the toy (I still have scars on my arms and legs). You'll have to pay for the redirection process with your blood

but I wouldn't expect others willing to do that. I supervised Yana all the time especially with kids. The good thing is that Yana is a super tugger right now, it's her favorite game and most desirable reward. And she still gets me sometimes when I'm not fast enough

Good luck with your pup!

 

[dOg]

Bite inhibition is going to be learned with a pack as large as your's, anyhow. They're going to yelp when bit. Learning bite inhibition is not
a bad thing, and won't stop him from biting hard when it's a tug or sleeve. Knowing when it's appropriate will come quickly with redirection soon enough, and I'll bet the farm you'll be yelping too in short order.
Mouthing softly he'll be able to drink your essence in, biting, he won't,
so will quickly learn the difference, regardless.

 

[GSD07]

I agree with Tracy's post also, people won't do what you ask them to if you are not there to step in. Also I don't allow others to correct my puppy or discipline him, I'm there to take care of that myself.

 

[jarn]

Yes, they did have something to redirect him to. It was only a couple of people who thought it was fun to get him to hang off their shoes, and I was like NO - he can bite to his heart's content, but not clothing or body parts.

I do have a feeling the dogs will teach him to some degree too. The biggest thing I took out of the bbq was that since I did have to do a couple of things, I should've put him in the crate and just explained that was b/c of training. At the picnic, while I'm technically the hostest, I won't have to be running off and I'll keep him w/me at all times, and that should be fine.

I should stress - nobody had issues with him. in the past few days, he has become able to cut/slice me, he wasn't before, so yup - I'm redirecting a lot faster!

 

[GSD07]

Originally Posted By: dOgI'll bet the farm you'll be yelping too in short order.

I was yelping and I was crying and my little puppy from **** Yana was eating me alive no matter what. I still can't believe how gentle she is right now and how she stops immediately when she accidentally touches my skin.

 

[jarn]

i do notice neb is WAY better than redirecting than when we started. i'm happy with it b/c it does seem to be effective and biting is all positive for him.

 

[big_dog7777]

LOL

You really want to avoid posting this kind of thing in the regular puppy section. That way you don't have to read posts about calling animal control about your "killer attack puppy"!

Here is the way I approached it. I don't want my puppy to interact with others the same way he does with me. With me you can show power, bite and we will work together to develop that. With others, I want him to be calm unless on a field, so I set him up for success. Before any interaction with others I would exercise him as much as possible, and then feed him. Now, when others come over they have clear cut rules. No quick movements (prey like). It is not funny to move your shoe quickly to get the puppy to latch on. We will not play chase, and nobody is prepared for the way my puppy would play with a ball or toy (especially after 3 months of age). Calm petting is the only interaction I want, and I supervise every single second. If I cannot, or my guests want to operate on the own agenda the pup is crated. It is much easier to start young and establish a separation of behavior between field and home as well as you (handler) and others that will carry over to adult life.

 

[big_dog7777]

Originally Posted By: OllieGSDI think you are making a huge mistake if you do not teach your dog bite inhibition. Dogs are genetically programmed w/ drive or not. It is either there or not. You can do a bit to encourage drive, but the blueprint is genetic and it is not possible to build it. It is irresponsible not to teach the dog basic manners. Keeping it's mouth of humans is rule number 1. It needs to learn how to deal w/ frustration not biting when or it wants and patience etc. or you will have a dog that will end up dangerous. It’s an 8 week old puppy - a BABY why don’t you spend time socializing, house training, having fun w/ the dog as opposed to worrying about drives etc.

Have you ever actually trained in drive? Why don't you spend time responding to questions about socializing, house training and having fun with puppies as opposed to worrying about giving advice that will mess up drive building and foundation work for others?

 

[jarn]

thanks very much john, that's really helpful! i was hoping you'd see this.

i realized for sure, my problem w/the bbq was that b/c it was that i wasn't controlling the interactions enough. what you've laid out is great.

from all the reading i've done, and seeing what working people have posted on other forums, what i'm doing w/neb isn't uncommon for working homes in terms of redirecting, not correcting, etc, and encouraging drives and making that the focus. i know that i'm not as experienced, so it's a learning process for me.

i do recognize neb is an off-breed to say the least....in terms of developing his prey, he is part husky, and i'm starting to get a lot of comments that dad may have been an off-breed which does sometimes compete in SchH and FR (and which is banned here in ontario and would make neb subject to bsl/euth, so if anyone comments about his head shape etc i've got my 'he's part lab!' comments ready).

anyways, my thought is - i want to get a mal one day and do FR. the timing didn't work now b/c i'd have to get a car, and financially i won't be buying one for about 4 years. but in the meantime, i see this as a golden opportunity to practise raising a working dog, learning about building drives, maximizing his natural drives, and building confidence in a dog. sort of like a test run. and my other thought, though i'll see how he develops, is the person i plan to train FR w/seems to be fairly open to different breeds (i've been out to visit a training session and am in touch w/someone who trains w/him who has mals from the breeder i'm looking at) - i've been invited to continue to visit the field to watch training so i can learn more about FR - maybe neb and i could do some FR training, again, as a learning experience, recognising that he is an 'off'-breed and that would likely impact how far he can go. i'm not sure how the trainer would feel about that though, it's just something i'm kicking around in my head now though even to do it in a more relaxed way i'd still have to figure out transportation issues. i haven't approached him at all, again, it's just something i thought would be great from a learning perspective.

....not that that was too long-winded

 

[BlackGSD]

Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDLOL

You really want to avoid posting this kind of thing in the regular puppy section. That way you don't have to read posts about calling animal control about your "killer attack puppy"!

I think maybe you should re-read what was posted. NOTHING was said about a "killer attack puppy".

 

[big_dog7777]

Originally Posted By: BlackGSDI think maybe you should re-read what was posted. NOTHING was said about a "killer attack puppy".

O.K., I re-read what was posted. So, why else would someone call animal control???

Let me elaborate a bit. We are talking about an off breed here, and let me be clear - there is nothing wrong with off breeds and mix's. But, if training in drive is what the OP's objective is here she will need to stack the environmental deck of cards in her favor since she did not start with perfect genetics. Telling her to take a dog whose drive and bite is being developed and keep him away from people is a wonderful way to develop a fear aggressive nutcase. Since this is a mix whose genetics have not carefully been planned in effort to develop a supremely confident animal the socialization is KEY (magnified x10 if the possible cross she mentioned). This is a delicate endeavor, but one that can absolutely be achieved. The end result is not dangerous or irresponsible, it's a confident dog who is easily motivated and therefore easily trainable and not aggressive.

 

[jarn]

and so far he is really good with people - his reaction to strangers is a wiggle butt. i can't say for sure if he's the cross he may be - the father is unknown, and it's a bit soon to say for sure, but i've had a few comments, i can see it (taking into account he is young) and i've approached people familiar w/the breed and they're split on it.

i adopted him b/c of his personality and fitting into my pack, first and foremost. i've been pleased to see he is confident in new situations, with new noises, and doesn't seem to have issues w/'scary' things. it is also early days though.

to have him well-socialized is really important to me, for a number of reasons - it's just basically important, i have an example of what happens when a dog's world is severely contracted for years in luc, and b/c i don't want any possible issues, especially if i think his mix is a potential risk (not from the perspective that there's anything wrong w/the breed, simply from a bsl perspective). also, b/c when i get the mal, i want to have the dog that is a good house dog and can go out on the field and perform at a high level.

john, you've expressed very well what i've been thinking but perhaps not able to communicate. i want to understand how to develop his drive, how to work w/a dog to do so, and to raise them where they can be highly socialized but still have lots of drive. when i noticed how well he's doing w/tugging i decided that i would take this as far as i can w/him and hopefully have a great learning process as a result, as well as developing him into a confident, well-socialized dog.

if i don't take him to the picnic this weekend, it's mostly going to be b/c it's in a park, and he's only had his first set of shots. there shouldn't be any dogs running free in the area we'd be in but i'm still not sure i want him there.

 

[OllieGSD]

Hey John,

I really appreciate your advice for me to

“Why don't you spend time responding to questions about socializing, house training and having fun with puppies as opposed to worrying about giving advice that will mess up drive building and foundation work for others?.”

Since you are the expert did it cross your mind to ask jarn what type of training Schh, FR or protection the puppy is being imprinted for? It makes a difference. Do you think it would be helpful to find out what experience jarn has w/ training in drive or raising a puppy for that matter? Do you think a first time dog owner should focus on the basics (socialization, housetraining etc.) or advanced imprinting theories? Maybe you could point to an experienced trainer who tells their students not to teach an 8 week old puppy to keep its mouth off people because it will hurt “drive.”



Rag and tug work is great for a puppy of 8 weeks to build confidence as part of an overall training strategy, but that was not what the original post said. The original post asked “raising a puppy not using bite inhibition.” I guess it doesn’t matter because this is just jarn’s practice dog until she can get a mal and do FR. Good Grief…..

So in your words “as opposed to worrying about giving advice that will mess up drive building and foundation work” Why don’t you realize that you are no expert on dogs and when people respond to a post as unclear and misleading as this maybe a little less sanctimony from you would be helpful.

 

[jarn]

okay....i thought i was clear in my original post i was redirecting neb (ETA that the original posts states more than once that i was using redirection), rather than using other methods, and that he was not allowed to bite people or clothing at will, but clearly i was not. i apologize for that.

john has been helpful to me here and on another board w/respect to my other dogs, and while i don't want to speak for him, he probably has a pretty good handle on what my experience is.

i'm not going to lay claim to being the most experienced person - but i can only gain it one way. i can definitely see that i need to make changes from the bbq in terms of not allowing other people to handle him as i did.

in terms of neb being my 'practice' dog - that's a bit of a silly way to put it; i did not adopt neb for that reason - as i stated, i adopted him b/c i liked his personality and he was chosen for fit w/my existing dogs.

when i noticed he has good prey drive and loves to tug, i decided to try to work w/him - hopefully doing some FR foundation work - as far as i can. and i really don't see what is wrong with that. no, i don't expect he will do as well as a mal would. but working w/him and training him towards a sport i'm interested in, even if we don't go far, is a great experience for both of us in terms of bonding and confidence. i know of people who do SchH obedience and tracking w/their dogs, but for instance don't expect them to excel in the protection aspect so don't trial them - i don't see how this is different or that i'm doing something wrong.