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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Robyn had her first FHO for her hip Dysplasia about 6 months ago. During that 6 months she swam 2x a week as rehab for the surgery and to build muscle for that hip and for the other hip that would also need surgery. She also was on things like turmeric, chicken feet, fish oil, and green lipped mussel to help with any inflammation and arthritis in that second hip until the surgery. Limited exercise, no jumping, etc. I did everything religiously. The plan was always to do the second surgery in 6 months. She had no symptoms and built up some muscle along the way.


Today she had her second surgery and it was very difficult. The doctor had a hard time and had to call two different vets in to help. She said that at one point in the middle of the surgery she almost called me to tell me that she couldn't do it. There was so much inflammation and arthritis in the hip that she couldn't get past it. Robyn was under for quite a while. The healing process is going to be on the long side but she is confident that it was successful.

I am seriously doubting what they say actually works for dogs when it comes to supplements and even swimming. I did it all and there is no way it should have been that bad. Robyn was showing no symptoms of any pain, but the vet said she had to be in pain. The xray didn't show anything, the only way they knew how bad was when they opened her up.

So now I question what do these supplements really do, if anything? Swimming? How does that not help? This whole time I thought she was doing good because I didn't see anything and she was in lots of pain. I feel awful and I don't know what else I could have done or given her? Nothing helped her and I wonder if it helps any dogs like we think it does. Dogs hide pain well and xrays aren't showing it. We can guess what it does but there is no way to know unless they actually have surgery. She wouldn't have been able to walk within the year. I'm mad that I didn't see anything and I'm really ticked off that all these supplements didn't work. It's not like I stuck with one, I did multiple in case ond didn't work and they all failed.

I've had a very stressful day and I just can't wait to get Robyn home tomorrow. During her recovery I would like to give supplements to help her along and now I'm not even sure what to do.

So if anyone has any ideas I'm open to them to make her recovery easier.
 

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I am glad your dog came out of the surgery okay and that the vet was able to perform the procedure.

Could you post a picture of her xrays?

I think all the supplements only serve the purpose of slightly easing such a serious condition. IMO, I don't see how they can do anything significant.

I think exercise, such as swimming, only helps to maintain, or possibly build to a minor degree, muscle mass in an affected joint, but once again, IMO, I don't see how that would help abate the actual condition. If they have it, it will only get worse over time. Can we slow it down, or ease the symptoms, with supplements and appropriate exercise? Maybe, each dog is different, but there is no cure and HD is progressive.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I am going to ask for the xrays that they did today before the surgery. I'm not great at reading them, so I will post them.

The thing is that the supplements should reduce inflammation and they didn't. The arthritis will come no matter what and in this case it came really fast. It was a false sense of security on my end to think that the supplements were doing anything, when in fact they did nothing. What if they made things worse? Is that even possible? I'm so mad that she was in pain and I didn't know it. The surgery on the first hip was done because that was the worse hip but within the last 6 months the second hip seemed to become the worse hip. I know that with my golden I could see in his walk that I had to get him in quick and tbe vet said that his other hip was about ready to go, I madd it just in time. Nothing like that with Robyn. I was going to wait longer but something told me to get her in and I'm glad I did.
 

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Well, you can't really say whether it did, or did not, reduce inflammation. Who knows how bad it would have been without the supplements? I think that just some dogs really have a better reaction to such things while others do not, IMO.

I do know that dogs can have severe HD and not show signs, but the xrays tell a different story while other dogs display a lot of discomfort with xrays showing only mild HD. It depends on the individual. All you can do is try and hope for the best.
 

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If you wanted to reduce inflammation you should have been giving her a drug, an NSAID, that is scientifically proven to reduce inflammation. Swimming doesn't fix these issues and I'm sure no one ever claimed it did. It's low impact exercise. Obviously dogs with HD shouldn't be doing hard exercise, so they recommend swimming since it isn't as hard on the joints.

I'll get back to later today re: glucosamine, MSM, Chondroitan etc.

Also can you post the radiographs because I am genuinely curious how they couldn't tell at all that it was so severe?

Also Lisa, I just started Berlin on Dasuquin Advanced - a supplement - and I have to have him on a double dose for 4-6 weeks until I can reduce to the maintenance dose. I don't expect to see any changes over night. Probably not for atleast 2 months. You seem to have been giving a lot of supplements but do you know the daily intake in gms she was getting of each? These things - when given as a preventative measure - the dosing is very different than when you are actually giving it to a dog who already has HD.
 

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Well this makes me nervous. Ziva has HD. She seems not to be in any pain but now idk maybe she is. I have been wondering when or if she would need bilateral FHO. Have noticed she doesn't run as fast as she used to and that her bunny hop is a bit more pronounced. Might be time for new xrays. We give gluocosimine, chondroiton, msm combo daily. I have rimadyl and tramadol on hand in case she has lameness or signs of pain. But, I don't like to give it unless she shows real signs of need. Long term rimadyl is not ideal.

Your situation has given me a lot to think about. Sending healing thoughts for Robyn's speedy recovery.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Small update because I have a million things to do. I completely forgot to ask about the xrays but I will get both to post. We talked about long term meds. I am not a fan of pain meds long term or Rimadyl, neither is the vet. I asked her for the best supplement they have and she gave me bioflex ultra. I asked about dasaquin(sp?) and she still opted to go with the bioflex because it's more complex and has omega 3 in it. They gave me $100 off the bill, so I got a two month supply at no charge. She also helped me find a certified place go swim Robyn. We went over the supplements I was giving and it should have worked. The swimming on the other hand proved to be very beneficial, it built up some much needed muscle, so I did something right.

Robyn is doing surprisingly well. She surprised the vet. She ate well this morning then started talking to them, of course they didn't understand that she had to pee(peed a River when we got home)Midnite had broke her out if the bathroom twice--he knows how to unlock the darn gate so I have to watch him. She laid outside for a minute, I gave her a pain pill and she is resting. We will start icing tonite, range of motion tomorrow. It's going to be a long week.
 

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ACTIVE INGREDIENTS: (per 1 soft chew)
Glucosamine HCI ...........................................................................................450 mg
MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane) ...............................................................400 mg
Creatine Monohydrate................................................................................250 mg
Bromelain ...........................................................................................................75 mg
Boswellia serrata extract ............................................................................. 20 mg
Zinc .......................................................................................................................15 mg
UC-II® unhydrolyzed collagen type II...................................................... 2.5 mg
Alpha-Lipoic Acid ............................................................................................10 mg
Vitamin C ........................................................................................................... 10 mg
EPA ......................................................................................................................... 9 mg
L-glutathione ...................................................................................................... 5 mg
DHA ........................................................................................................................ 6 mg
Hyaluronic acid................................................................................................... 5 mg
Manganese .......................................................................................................... 2 mg
Selenium ............................................................................................................. 70 μg
Vitamin E .............................................................................................................. 50 IU

Glucosamine hydrochloride 450 mg; MSM 400 mg; Creatine monohydrate 250 mg; Bromelain 75 mg; Grape seed extract 25 mg; Boswellia serrata extract 20 mg; Zinc 15 mg; UC -Il® unhydrolyzed collagen type II 2.5 mg; Alpha-Lipoic Acid 10 mg; Vitamin C 10 mg; EPA 9 mg, L-glutathione 5 mg; DHA 6 mg; Hyaluronic acid 5 mg; Manganese 2 mg; Selenium 70 µg; Vitamin E 50 IU

BioFlex Ultra Soft Chews support joint function and flexibility when strong antioxidant properties are needed. UC-II works with the immune system to help maintain joint integrity.


many of these ingredients , sans boswellia serrata (Indian frankincense) -- alpha lipoic acid (found in LIVR , red meat , organ meat) ARE SUPPLEMENTS -- not drugs -- available in many supplements . The hyaluronic acid could be given through a raw egg with shell -- or an eyeball (rich source) or how easy is this , Chicken SKIN , the stuff that everyone throws away.

In this product I don't see a whole lot of omega 3 -- why and how , separate EPA from fish oil which also has DHA?

Just the other day Saphire of Gus fame , came over for a visit. Questions led to a brief show and tell on Glutathione , double strength Lysine , N-AC (n-N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine ) the more bio available source of L-Cysteine , - and alpha lipoic acid - all assisting each other .

Another interesting "supplement" is SERRAPEPTASE an enzyme able to clear debris -- . Friend coming to a change of mind to trying an alternative after years when conventional help had no effect and the aged GSD was seizing up with HD arthritic pain . Changed to raw , got her on supplements , and when things looked like there was progress introduced her to serrapeptase == eye opening for her and now she is trying this for herself.

There are some powerful anti inflammatory available and they do help.

Instead of focusing on one spot consider the entire body -- particularly the digestive system - reduce inflammation .

lots to talk about here
 

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Not a fan of carprofen either - especially long term. I bought aspirin today for Berlin to use only as needed. Again. Not long term.

Also pain meds (opioids - like tramadol) and NSAIDs are different classes of drugs, completely different.
 

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Carmspack, any info about acetyl cysteine and glutathione helping dogs? I work with both of these chemicals in the raw form very frequently. I know glut is a powerful antioxidant. Use it for cancer patients.
 

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We give gluocosimine, chondroiton, msm combo daily. I have rimadyl and tramadol on hand in case she has lameness or signs of pain.
There was just big news in the vet world that Tramadol was shown to be USELESS for pain in dogs. The research found that it does absolutely nothing to alleviate pain. This new research has caused big, big waves in the vet community in the past month or so -- call your vet and ask! Mine actually called me after they attended a seminar, just to share this, as it's huge news.

Tramadol along with carprofen had been the standard of care for pain relief for many vets for years...but no longer. My vet told told me to throw away what supply I had left of tramadol.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Robyn does get a raw diet. She gets chicken with skin 3-4 times a week, raw egg a couple times a week, sardines rotated with herring a few times a week, turkey/chicken/goat/ostrich/elk/pork heart(1-2 different hearts daily)red meat pretty much daily, liver, kidney and (spleen/pancreas/testes, brain rotated) daily portion.

What am I missing here? I'm open to any ideas.

Rimadyl and Tramadol are out, both can cause issues. Robyn is extremely healthy other then the Dysplasia. The vet thoughg she was 2 and was surprised when I said 5. Thanks to that raw diet her teeth are in exceptional shape.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
There was just big news in the vet world that Tramadol was shown to be USELESS for pain in dogs. The research found that it does absolutely nothing to alleviate pain. This new research has caused big, big waves in the vet community in the past month or so -- call your vet and ask! Mine actually called me after they attended a seminar, just to share this, as it's huge news.

Tramadol along with carprofen had been the standard of care for pain relief for many vets for years...but no longer. My vet told told me to throw away what supply I had left of tramadol.
Interesting. For some reason I am thinking that Rimadyl snd Tramadol have to go together to work. I'm not sure why I think that or where I heard that?
 

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They used to say they worked better together, but no longer. Apparently all the Tramadol does is perk up their affect (something to do with seratonin) so it seems like they're improved, but it's just mood improvement not pain improvement.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
They used to say they worked better together, but no longer. Apparently all the Tramadol does is perk up their affect (something to do with seratonin) so it seems like they're improved, but it's just mood improvement not pain improvement.
See it's stuff like this that makes me wonder about everything. Dogs hide pain so well and how do we really know if they are in pain or not? We give them these things because we are told they help and that's that. They gave me Rimadyl and Tramadol for Robyn, I usually give it for the first couple days and then stop it. Now I'm wondering if I should even bother giving it all.
 

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Llombardo, fwiw, prior to my hip replacement, it was bone on bone with arthritis. It took 3 months before the surgeon could get me in. Advil and the pool were the only two things that relieved the excruciating pain.

Point being is that while I was suspended in water, all pain subsided. So I am positive that if Robyn was feeling pain but hiding it, the water activity you did with her prior to, helped her a lot.

I was also given tramadol to replace the advil 10 days prior to surgery, the tramadol did nothing but make me loopy. I still had the excruciating pain. Begged to get back on the advil but they wouldn't allow it.

I think advil and Rimadyl are both nsaids. After the surgery, and back home, all I needed was the Advil.

I don't actually know how a dog experiences pain and the relief of it but if it is anything like what I went through, an anti-nflammatory should help.

****advil is for humans only. Rimadyl for dogs**** just wanted to makes this clear for other readers.
 

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I'm sorry about your girl! I hope her recovery goes well! Don't beat yourself up, you always do your best with your pups that you possibly can. They are all lucky to have you.

Personally, I think the natural supplements work best for "normal wear and tear" so to speak. For major conditions I am all about the drugs that modern medicine can offer. Pump my guys full of the steroids, NSAIDS, opiods, and what ever else you can think of.

FHO can be really hard on larger dogs, lots of vets aren't keen on doing them for the big guys and gals. Recovery put a lot of pressure on that 2nd hip, anti inflammatories, glucosamine and chondroiton are great, but we are talking about daily mechanical grinding of that joint. It was going to happen even with the best supplements and drugs.

I see you were using whole food supplements mostly, which is great, however it can be hard to get therapeutic doses with them. Did you by chance calculate the specific nutrients you were targeting? A therapeutic dose of glucosamine for a large breed is close to 2000mg during induction, it would have taken 5 or so chicken feet daily to hit that. The studies I have read on turmeric being better then perscription drugs don't use whole turmeric but instead use a supplement that has isolated the active ingredient in the root - curcumin. The dosage for some of the better curcumin products looks to be around 800mg per dose. Curcumin only makes up 3 - 6% of the plant root. To get the level of curcumin that was used in those studies from whole root comes to almost an ounce per day.

My doctor has told me to split my multivitamin up into two doses per day - the body takes what it can use right now and flushes the rest out as waste. This leads me to believe that multiple smaller doses throughout the the day are better than a larger once daily dose - How often were you supplementing?

Also, the severity of the osteoarthritis you're seeing in her hip could be the trade off for the benefits you get from spaying. Both alpha and beta estrogen receptors have been found in cartilage, indicating that it cartilage responds to sex hormones. Hormone replacement therapy does help arthritis symptoms in menopausal women. Then there is the possablity that in addition to HD Robyn is also predisposed for more severe arthritis. Not really helpful for the situation, just possibilities of why it got so bad so fast, so nothing you did "wrong" YKWIM.

If you want to stick with hold foods and natural supplements, there are alot of other natural anti inflammatories you can offer. It could be the problem of finding the right combination for her. Lots of the herbs and spices we use for cooking have some pretty powerful medical properties. Ginger, cloves, allspice, rosemary, thyme, sage, majoram, cinnamon, etc. Getting into the habit of "seasoning" her raw meals couldn't hurt.
 

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I never saw any improvement in Jax on a variety of different brands until I found one Sport Dog made, and has since discontinued. One had a multitude of vitamins/minerals along with willow bark. the other was the joint supplement. So when I ran out, I went to the local health food store and picked up liquid willow bark I could dose in drops. My retired boss talked to his holistic doctor, who also works with animals, and said as long as the willow bark was not in an alcohol base we were good to go. Doesn't have the side affects that aspirin does and is working well in low dose.
 

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There was just big news in the vet world that Tramadol was shown to be USELESS for pain in dogs. The research found that it does absolutely nothing to alleviate pain. This new research has caused big, big waves in the vet community in the past month or so -- call your vet and ask! Mine actually called me after they attended a seminar, just to share this, as it's huge news.

Tramadol along with carprofen had been the standard of care for pain relief for many vets for years...but no longer. My vet told told me to throw away what supply I had left of tramadol.
Well this is concerning. In the past we had two senior litter mates that both had severe arthritis. They were both on a rimadyl tramadol protocol. I will say that I had issue using both. But they needed relief. We went with the lowest dose of rimadyl we believed to be effective. We played around a lot with the tramadol dosage to get it right and not just make them sleep all day. They appeared to get relief at the time. But our dogs can't tell us so do we really know?

I myself have taken tramadol many times for long periods. As a human I can say it works for some types pain and not at all for other types. Does nothing for nerve pain. So it does make me wonder if dogs are experiencing nerve pain as the joints deteriorate does it really help. Maybe the effect of sleepiness just helps them sleep and rest through the pain. IDK.

Much to think about here.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I'm sorry about your girl! I hope her recovery goes well! Don't beat yourself up, you always do your best with your pups that you possibly can. They are all lucky to have you.

Personally, I think the natural supplements work best for "normal wear and tear" so to speak. For major conditions I am all about the drugs that modern medicine can offer. Pump my guys full of the steroids, NSAIDS, opiods, and what ever else you can think of.

FHO can be really hard on larger dogs, lots of vets aren't keen on doing them for the big guys and gals. Recovery put a lot of pressure on that 2nd hip, anti inflammatories, glucosamine and chondroiton are great, but we are talking about daily mechanical grinding of that joint. It was going to happen even with the best supplements and drugs.

I see you were using whole food supplements mostly, which is great, however it can be hard to get therapeutic doses with them. Did you by chance calculate the specific nutrients you were targeting? A therapeutic dose of glucosamine for a large breed is close to 2000mg during induction, it would have taken 5 or so chicken feet daily to hit that. The studies I have read on turmeric being better then perscription drugs don't use whole turmeric but instead use a supplement that has isolated the active ingredient in the root - curcumin. The dosage for some of the better curcumin products looks to be around 800mg per dose. Curcumin only makes up 3 - 6% of the plant root. To get the level of curcumin that was used in those studies from whole root comes to almost an ounce per day.

My doctor has told me to split my multivitamin up into two doses per day - the body takes what it can use right now and flushes the rest out as waste. This leads me to believe that multiple smaller doses throughout the the day are better than a larger once daily dose - How often were you supplementing?

Also, the severity of the osteoarthritis you're seeing in her hip could be the trade off for the benefits you get from spaying. Both alpha and beta estrogen receptors have been found in cartilage, indicating that it cartilage responds to sex hormones. Hormone replacement therapy does help arthritis symptoms in menopausal women. Then there is the possablity that in addition to HD Robyn is also predisposed for more severe arthritis. Not really helpful for the situation, just possibilities of why it got so bad so fast, so nothing you did "wrong" YKWIM.

If you want to stick with hold foods and natural supplements, there are alot of other natural anti inflammatories you can offer. It could be the problem of finding the right combination for her. Lots of the herbs and spices we use for cooking have some pretty powerful medical properties. Ginger, cloves, allspice, rosemary, thyme, sage, majoram, cinnamon, etc. Getting into the habit of "seasoning" her raw meals couldn't hurt.

The turmeric I use is straight from the root. I get it 100% from the Indian Store. You can get the root and do it yourself or get it already done. She loves chicken feet and got 3-4 daily. Along with the other stuff I'd have to say she was really close to 2000. I was figuring on 1500 a day. I think the only reason she was able to get the FHO is because she is so slender. She averages about 72 pounds(give or take) and is 28 inches. She did build muscle with the swimming which is going to play a huge role in healing. I'm going to have to take her to a chiropractor to get adjusted in the neck area, in case weight is shifting there. Thankfully she will eat anything I give her so I can definitely add stuff to her food. There is no arthritis in the first hip she had surgery on, the vet said that healed great and there is no bond on bone, just hoping for the same result on this hip. She is a good patient and lets me do whatever is needed, she completely trusts me. The vet said she was really good for them to, she said at first they were very careful with her because you never know but she behaved.

I'm going to look and see what other things the rehab place offers. Any info on acupuncture? Is that worth a shot?
 
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