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Discussion Starter #1
I have a 4 year old WGSD that, not by our own 'hey, we want puppies from our boy!', but after his breeder saw him after he grew up a bit, she wants to breed him. We have absolutely no issue with this and we are happy to do this for the two-legged mother of our boy. We are working with the breeder and she is guiding us through each and every step of this process. He's been OFA'ed, AKC'ed, and health checked like mad.

My question is this: I have never thought about doing shows. Obedience Trials and SAR are more up my alley than the confirmation ring. Are those that are looking for stud dogs more interested in the Confirmation Titles, or is having a very well trained SAR Dog with some good Obedience Titles just as good?

I have noticed in the signatures of everyones' posts that they have dogs with dozens of letters after their names. I do not know what any of them mean, but I'm sure they have to do with both Confirmation and Obedience, but when I look online at breeder websites, you never see anyone talking about their dogs doing anything but shows. I know the dog needs to meet the breed standard first and foremost, but I really want to start the learning process so that, one day, I'm ready to do this on my own.
 

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My first question would be why would your breeder want to breed your dog? What's so significant about him? Has he been breed surveyed? There are lots of breeders out there, and your dog must meet breed standards to even be considered. It sounds like you have plans to work with him to prove some "breed worthiness" but IMO your breeder should be seeing something more than a "pretty dog" to want to breed him. There is a thread here on the 'breed standard" which you may want to take a look at. Who is your breeder? What is your dog's pedigree? There's much more involved than just putting together a male and female. Matching pedigrees, and the history and temperament of both dogs is part of it. Just because you have two good dogs, doesn't mean they're going to produce good pups.
 

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Depending on what the breeder is breeding for its up to them what they want to see. Many ASL breeders could care less about obedience titles and only look for the Ch. in front of the dog's name. And the Ch. isn't that rare...200+ dogs in 2010 I believe. Its interesting that the breeder doesn't care that you haven't shown as many of those breeders do put their best prospects in a home where they expect that dog to be shown.

With that in mind, you've supported this breeder before. Read some of the "reputable breeder" stuff on this forum and do your own research, after that, does this person sound like someone you trust to do the right thing with the puppies and with their breeding program. If this person seems to know what they're doing and you trust them, I can't tell you not to stud to their bitch. In this situation you're really not a breeder.

As the owner of a male myself I have come to the conclusion that if a bitch owner that I know and trust enough to do the right thing with the puppies asks me to stud to their dog I will definitely think about it. I'll check the lines and see if things line up (in your case your dog is already from those lines). It is interesting that this breeder wants to breed to your boy as they should have something in their lines already that has everything your dog has to offer...are you breeding to a family member or a new bitch they purchased?

Depending on your dog, your area, and other things...you probably won't be asked to stud by anyone else based on your dog's current titles and achievements. If you are asked I would really question the breeder asking (no offense). You have correct reservations as your dog hasn't really proven himself against the competition (in conformation or obedience/work). It is very true that most times people that show look for championships and dogs that were successful in the show ring, and people that show in the obedience ring like to see dogs that were successful in that ring. If you start training/trialing now, by the time you're done your dog will be too old to breed anyways...if you're interested in starting one day you can go through it with this one as a learning process for the next one.
 

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If I were you I would find a working event that both the dog can excel in and that you enjoy. That may be Search and Rescue, obedience, advanced tracking, or maybe even herding. Too me, a working title says more about the dogs value to the breed than a confirmation title.

One more thing, if you are out there working and competing with your dog against other GSDs you will get a better idea of whether or not your dog should be used for breeding. The more people who are exposed to your dog in action, the more feedback you will receive (positive or negative) about interest in your dog.
 

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I think in all fairness, if you are doing all the health checks, you are working with your breeder, and you are planning to do obedience or agility or something like that, then you are no different than the vast majority of ASL breeders who breed with CH in front of dogs name or even some west German SL breeders, and I don't see people taking them through changes.....so I guess I would say continue the path that I see many other reputable breeders taking.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
@Jag: Finn comes from a good working line. He came from the last litter between his parents and the breeder wants to restart things with this particular line. She wants to spend quality time with her aging pets before settling back into the breeding cycle. He conforms to breed standard from what she has said (I am trying to stack him to post pictures on this site, but it's not going very well. I have one of him in an *almost* stack that I'll submit.) but she likes his drive. We got great kudos in our SAR group and he has a beautiful temperment.

@martemchik: During one of our several breeder/buyer interviews, we told her that we were looking for a good SAR dog. We sat with her for a long time and talked about what to look for in a pup; good play drive, not the most dominant, but not the little pup sitting all alone in the back. Finn just had that extra something. I was sitting with my husband, trying to make our decision and I was spinning the collar around on my finger when he walked up and plopped his butt down in front of us. He nosed at the collar a few times and when I held it up, he put his nose and head through it, then walked off with his head held high back to his brothers and sisters.

We were told that he was one of two dogs another breeder wanted, but hadn't made her final decision on, so we made a second pick, a pretty girl I initially wanted. We were sure we were going to get the girl when our breeder called and said we got the boy.

Reading the reputable breeder stuff, she had met that and excelled. I laughed with her once during our second phone interview that I'm sure my parents went through less when they adopted me! She told us from the very beginning that we weren't promised a dog; if she didn't like us or something that she heard, we wouldn't get one from her. We trust her immensely. We would be breeding to a friend of hers (another breeder) with their bitch. We are planning on freezing sperm, so the age of Finn isn't too much of an issue. I just get to enjoy him being him.

@robk: We are finishing up our CGC classes next month, then we are going to try and do obedience/working trials.

@cliffson1: Thank you.

I have no issue with never breeding him. Per the breeder, as much as she would love to continue his line, in the end, it is our decision. She respects it and honors it in every way, which makes me feel pretty good. We have some samples of him frozen and if we find a good girl down the line, we have that option. If not, I'm okay with destroying the samples and starting over with another boy.
 

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He conforms to breed standard from what she has said (I am trying to stack him to post pictures on this site, but it's not going very well. I have one of him in an *almost* stack that I'll submit.)
Finn if I'm not mistaken is white and therefore does not conform to the breed standard unless your breeder is producing White Shepherds rather than white coated German Shepherd Dogs. White is a disqualifying fault in the GSD breed standard. Finn can't compete in the AKC show ring. No white GSD can have an AKC Championship title. :(

Reading the reputable breeder stuff, she had met that and excelled.
Would you mind sharing the breeders kennel name?

If not, I'm okay with destroying the samples and starting over with another boy.
Looking into the future are you planning on breeding standard GSD's (black and tan etc.), whites, or both?
 

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I think in all fairness, if you are doing all the health checks, you are working with your breeder, and you are planning to do obedience or agility or something like that, then you are no different than the vast majority of ASL breeders who breed with CH in front of dogs name or even some west German SL breeders, and I don't see people taking them through changes.....so I guess I would say continue the path that I see many other reputable breeders taking.
I can't believe you wrote this. :(
 

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Why?.....what about what I wrote was not true???? The issue to me is hypocrisy! How many reputable breeders today are breeding with little more than health checks?, and some titles that any dog can acquire? If they happen to be members of this board they get a pass! See I read very carefully what people write....this poster said they were going to work with their breeder....am I to assume the breeder knows nothing? Especially when the OP says they are going to pursue the same standards as some of the breeders on this forum who are creditable and have much to say on breeding. I'm just trying to be fair, but my gut tells me that the breeder is probably not a BYB breeder. As more info comes out we'll see if this path is much different from many other reputable breeders in the country.
 

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@WhiteShepherds: Obviously not in coat color, but when it talks about the body lines (hope I'm using that word correctly), size, and what not. I am very well aware that he cannot compete in the AKC show ring, which is sad, but it is what it is. I would be more than happy to PM you the breeder's name. She came as a recommendation from a breeder in TN and from a breeder in Ohio.

They had both gotten remarkable dogs from her and they had nothing but wonderful things to say about her and her dogs. There was no kennel name. May I ask what the difference is between a White Shepherd and a White Coated German Shepherd Dog? I've never heard that distinction being made before...

I also would probably stick to White or Black. I have no want or desire to be in a Show Ring. Please do not take offense to my next statement, anyone who does show work, but I am more interested in promoting the working aspect of the dog like Obedience, Agility, and Tracking, than I am being told that my dog isn't good enough because his eyes aren't dark enough, or some little nitpicky thing like that. I have the utmost respect for anyone who does Show Work, I really do. It's just not my thing.

@cliffson1: Thank you. I'm just trying to learn what the nuiances of breeding are. My goal is to breed a line of Working Dogs that will be the envy of everyone. It took us four months before we settled on three breeders that we wanted to even email, let alone get a puppy from. I figured that I was in good hands when two highly recommended breeders named the same person (both breeder's entire litters were spoken for.)
 

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I was aware it was a white German Shepherd from the first post. The information the OP presented indicated someone who was trying to do things right with what they had. I just felt that the benefit of positive information given instead of the prosecutorial approach you see from some. Person was new and what they were seeking was not much different than others. Now if I were to come out and openly criticize the bulk of ASL breeders that that also don't meet the test of the prosecutorial police, many ASL people would take offense; likewise if I came out and said very negative things about WGS dogs, I'm sure there would be WGS owners that would be offended and point out the virtues of these dogs. My point is the OP isn't seeking to do anything different then many others that we never challenge.....why challenge them instead of rendering some information about what THEY asked about, instead of what we think they ought to be doing, when we really don't know them. Frankly, the aim of a breeding program is much more important to me. When I hear a person say their goal is to breed the best working dogs they can.....they are in the right pew unlike many others who are critical.
Sorry this upset some, but everyone should be treated with respect, instead of assuming everyone first heard of the breed when they came here. Some people need a lot of education, but first you have to get a feel for where they are....jmo.
 

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I know some of you are thinking that, "Hey, Cliff, you can get salty sometime!....well that is the truth, but it is never with new people. I try to be helpful, or correct a misperception they may have.
 

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"I have a 4 year old WGSD that, " then " Finn comes from a good working line." on this point I am confused. He is show line or working line? What working line has whites?
Cliff is right - I don't have a problem either. Can this dog be the fountain of some of the best working dogs ever -- most likely not -- depends on the lines -- but is the idea good - yes it is.
I am always surprised by SAR being offered as a title. I know that in Canada we have some really severe criteria for SAR teams. I know of one extremely dedicated person who maybe after a year and a half missed ONE training session and was asked to not appear again - .
 

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How many reputable breeders today are breeding with little more than health checks?, and some titles that any dog can acquire? If they happen to be members of this board they get a pass!
:thumbup:
 

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Shaolin owns a male . That is one of the problems in this discussion. A breeder starts with a female . People don't come knocking your door down to use your male, and if they do the intentions are often wrong (sperm donor and that's about it).
In this case the person wanting to breed already is a breeder . These are lines familiar to them. The possibility
of building this great working line from this male can be revealed by looking at the big picture of what has already been done -- check out all the littermates, grand parents etc. Go deep into the pedigree . At some point you will have to tap in to working lines and that may be a problem because people don't want their dog producing , siring whites. So you are handicapped, and add to the handicap by saying you will probably stick to whites or blacks.
 

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OP sorry if you took my post in any bad way but I am pretty much with Cliff on this one. I wouldn't really worry about the future. It sounds like your breeder does know what they're doing and they've asked you for a stud. Like Carmen said, no one is going to be knocking on your door to use your dog, but your breeder who understands the lines he came from and has some idea of what the dog is, asked you for a stud.

If you know the breeder will do everything in their power to check for good homes just like they did with you and also guarantee the puppies like their own, I don't see an issue with it. I wouldn't count on a lot more people coming to ask for your stud services, but if it happens make sure you check them out and understand what their true intentions are.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
@carmspack: Per the breeder and what the other breeders who recommended her stated, some of her dogs have gone on to do great SAR work, Police work (Possibly in California. I don't remember the specifics), and various other Work/Obedience applications.

@cliffson1: Thanks for not treating me like an idiot. :D I love Shepherds, I have all my life. I was 22 before I got my first GSD after spending a good portion of my life learning everything that I could about the breed. I decided that I wanted to learn how to breed them and create good, strong working dogs. I wish that there were no color faults; I think that there are great dogs with the right stuff to pass on to future generations, but because of color faults or incidental size faults; like an inch on either side, they aren't considered "good quality" dogs.

Then again, I'm just not a Show person, so that's probably why I focus on what the dog can do versus what he looks like.

@martemchik: I wasn't offended with what you had to say. I'm not looking to the future so much with Finn as I am just breeding in general. If he mates and produces a litter of awesome pups, then great. If not, I was blessed with one helluva dog. Either way, I'm happy.
 

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I decided that I wanted to learn how to breed them and create good, strong working dogs.

I am just breeding in general. If he mates and produces a litter of awesome pups, then great. If not, I was blessed with one helluva dog
i thought your breeder wanted to breed the dog?:confused:

you're not even certain...:confused:

EDIT: you a PJ?
 

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Shaolin,
I absolutely think you are on the right track toward breeding; working with an established breeder who is familiar with the lines, doing health tests and testing temperament. As Cliff said, that is far more than many "breeders" do and shows a solid, balanced focus on producing good dogs. Conformation titles are good, but since the goal is to produce dogs with some working ability I would focus on other things, such as the obedience titles and SAR certification you metioned. Of course, ideally do both, but if you have to choose go for those that tell the most about the dog's character, and that is of utmost importance. Plus it sounds like those are the areas you are the most familiar with and interested in.
 
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