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Discussion Starter #1
With the increases in genetic diseases for the GSD, what do you all feel about the other genetic tests? Tests like DM, JRD, MCR1, etc? I personally know a pup who died at 9 months from JRD that came from a well known WGWL breeder. Even with the autopsy reports, they are turning a blind eye on this genetic issue and still breeding the same dogs.
Do you all believe that all breeding stock should be tested for all available genetic diseases?
 

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Do you all believe that all breeding stock should be tested for all available genetic diseases?
No. Realistically people only have so much money and can only do so much. While I DO believe as much as possible should be done to prevent genetic diseases, I find it far more important to test for what is most common in terms of issues.

With the DM test, I like to see it because it means the breeder is aware of the issue (that has become more prevalent in the last few years) and wants to do something about it....but as of right now, the test itself isn't considered highly reliable. Heart troubles are another that I have not seen as terribly common in the breed. Some people do test for issues, but unless you've been producing those issues, I would ask why you were testing. And even beyond that...WHEN did the issues arise? With what breeding, and what bloodlines?
 

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Me too, and would like to add there is nothing like a "free of everything" dog. And even if they exist you would narrow the gene pool to such extents than the breed would vanish.

You who have kids and/or are planning to have descendants... are you and your entirely family free of genetic diseases?
 

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I have nothing against these tests, but I don't think they are a substitute for breeders really knowing their lines and what sorts of problems might be expected or eliminated based on combining pedigrees. A test is only a snapshot of THAT particular dog (and this is even being nice and assuming these tests are accurate). I've seen dogs with a1 hips that certain breeders will avoid because in combination with other lines, are known to produce bad hips. We can't realistically eliminate health problems just based on testing individual dogs. For one, a dog that is "clear" of something like HD can still produce it, and two if we just start eliminated ALL dogs that have any problem or might carry any problem, we won't be left with much. To me, this is where breeding becomes more of an art than a science. I'm not a breeder, this is just how I feel on the matter. I do not rule out breeders because they aren't running a dozen tests on each dog.
 

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I can see testing when bringing in a new dog to their breeding program but it doesn't make sense to me to test puppies, or dogs that have been in a program. If a breeder, with an established line like Robin's, Lee's, Chris and Tim, have not had any issues with genetic diseases then what would they gain by testing? Do genetic disease skip several generations before showing up? Or do genetic diseases show up enough that a breeder would know?
 

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Going back to the first post, however..........

Since the genetic disease has cropped up in a breeder...the breeder is aware of it...shouldn't the breeder be testing both parents to see where the issue is and stopping use of the dogs? I'm not very familiar with JRD...
 

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I believe if the tests are available the dog should be tested for it. Having "limited funds" is not a excuse to not get the tests done, it’s actually the exact reason why you should NOT be breeding as people are not into it for the money but for the betterment of the breed. Narrowing the gene pool while eliminating health problems is actually a GOOD thing, it means that future generations will have FEWER problems not more.
 

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I believe if the tests are available the dog should be tested for it. Having "limited funds" is not a excuse to not get the tests done, it’s actually the exact reason why you should NOT be breeding as people are not into it for the money but for the betterment of the breed. Narrowing the gene pool while eliminating health problems is actually a GOOD thing, it means that future generations will have FEWER problems not more.
So dogs can be so expensive from reputable breeders no one can afford them? There has to be a little bit of give and take here. The buyers are the ones that will be absorbing those prices.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Going back to the first post, however..........

Since the genetic disease has cropped up in a breeder...the breeder is aware of it...shouldn't the breeder be testing both parents to see where the issue is and stopping use of the dogs? I'm not very familiar with JRD...

The breeder has turned a blind eye on the issue. So has people that have progeny and stud their dogs out and have MORE pups die. It sickens me. They refuse to accept that it's coming from their dogs.
As far as the cost of the tests, it isn't really that expensive. If you have ever seen a 9 month old pup die from JRD, you would think the $155 for the test is cheap in comparison.
 

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The breeder has turned a blind eye on the issue. So has people that have progeny and stud their dogs out and have MORE pups die. It sickens me. They refuse to accept that it's coming from their dogs.
As far as the cost of the tests, it isn't really that expensive. If you have ever seen a 9 month old pup die from JRD, you would think the $155 for the test is cheap in comparison.
When a breeder asks $1500 and up for a pup as we speak right now,then yes,they should be going out there and making themselves aware of what they are breeding and if its preventable by simply testing for whats available, then weeding out the carriers and not including them in their breeding program.
If eveyone is tooting about responsible breeders then this is a glaring issue that should not be glossed over because of the cost of a test and then make it acceptable not to do it because it may mean extra dollars coming from the breeders pocket.At $1500 and up a breeder should be able to give you the assurance that they have tested for whats available by choice because they care about what they are passing into their genetic pool for the future of their kennels and the familys that they may be affecting when they produce a puppy that will leave the boundaries of that said kennel.
If a breeder knowingly passes up a test that could determine a genetic flaw that should not be duplicated,what is there to differentiate them from your common BYB?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
*cough*.....this breeder charges around $4000 per pup.
 

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The breeder has turned a blind eye on the issue. So has people that have progeny and stud their dogs out and have MORE pups die. It sickens me. They refuse to accept that it's coming from their dogs.
As far as the cost of the tests, it isn't really that expensive. If you have ever seen a 9 month old pup die from JRD, you would think the $155 for the test is cheap in comparison.
Juvenile Renal Dysplasia (JRD)
A SIMPLIFIED EXPLANATION
by David Payne

PRINT HERE
Juvenile Renal Dysplasia (JRD) is a kidney disease. The JRD carriers can be potentially affected with reduced kidney development, which in turn reduces kidney function. This is because this disease affects the normal development of the kidneys’, much like Hip Dysplasia (HD) which affects the normal development of the Hips. Like HD which varies in the amount it affects the hips, with measured scores in the British BVA/KC system from ZERO to 106 at the worst level, JRD has similar varying levels of effect on the development of the kidneys.
A JRD carrier needs to have its kidney function assessed by a Vet, this would include Urine & Blood tests, and it may also include a wedge biopsy of the kidneys, if considered appropriate by the Vet. In carriers of a very young age it may be advisable to have the kidney function regularly monitored up to the age of two years at least, again because, in a similar way to Hips, the kidneys take some time to reach full development, and as most will know we do not have our dogs hips scored before 1 year of age because of the hips development period.
The owners of the JRD carriers have been advised to consult a Vet as soon as possible regarding the JRD DNA Test result, and request tests on kidney function and other Veterinary advice.
The mode of inheritance of JRD is considered to be Dominant with incomplete penetration. Dominant means only one JRD carrier parent can pass it on to some of its offspring, in the case of a JRD Homozygote carrier, they will pass it on to ALL of their offspring. The incomplete penetration is because when a GSD is a carrier it is potentially affected to various levels or degrees, much like Hip Dysplasia in a litter varies in its Hip scores or Hip grading for each dog in the same litter.
When the level of Kidney development is below that which is required to survive, the JRD carrier will show some clinical signs, some of which are loss of appetite, loss of weight, lethargy, and clear urine. JRD carriers so affected at this level will die. Many carriers can live for many years with only slightly impaired kidney function, and can go easily undetected as carriers. These carriers if undetected can pass the disease onto their offspring.
With our large and diverse gene pool in the German Shepherd Dog breed, it is my opinion that JRD carriers, especially Homozygote carriers should NOT be bred from, or if identified after they have been bred from, they should be retired from breeding. It is therefore vital for our breed that when a carrier is identified, any siblings or offspring that is or may be used for breeding are JRD DNA Tested, The carriers parents should be tested, and where additional carriers are identified, a similar pattern of testing should be considered. Only by adopting this method of testing and retiring carriers from breeding can we eliminate JRD from our breed.
If we do nothing, in a few years our breed could be swamped with JRD, a horrifying prospect indeed.

David Payne
VIDEX GSD

THE JRD DNA TEST IS EXPECTED TO BE PATENTED & VALIDATED IN 2009. READ HERE

 

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Discussion Starter #16
I read that yesterday. There are a few genetic posts over on PDB.
 

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If I had any suspicion that any of my dogs had something like JRD and there was a reliable genetic test, I would do the test and use it to guide my breeding decisions.

I don't plan on doing the JRD test on a dog from my bloodlines who has never had a health issue and neither did the dog's siblings, mother, father, grandmother, grandfather, etc. For the same reasons, I don't do CERF or cardio testing.

But if there were signs of genetic health problem in any parents or siblings, then it is important to find out and use any information that it's possible to get.

If there were a reliable DNA test for hemangiosarcoma, I'd do it in a second--too many GSDs, from all bloodlines, are dying from this.
 

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*cough*.....this breeder charges around $4000 per pup.
$4000 a pop and no testing for a serious genetic issue that they know they carry in their lines?How can anyone disregard this practice?
So if you are not getting health for $4000,what are you getting?The dog better poop golden nuggets to at least pay for vet bills.
 

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The breeder has turned a blind eye on the issue. So has people that have progeny and stud their dogs out and have MORE pups die. It sickens me. They refuse to accept that it's coming from their dogs.
As far as the cost of the tests, it isn't really that expensive. If you have ever seen a 9 month old pup die from JRD, you would think the $155 for the test is cheap in comparison.
hmmm- this goes beyond not testing for possible genetic diseases. It has cropped up in their lines and they pretend it's not there. Yikes- I predict you will be getting a lot of PM's....
 

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If I had a genetic health issue arise with a puppy from a litter.....this is what I would honestly do.
1) Document & research the issue. (prevention).
2) Document "which" lineage is involved in this litter. (prevention).
3) Make sure NOT to use this specific combination of parents again. (prevention)
4) By keeping track of puppies whelped and sired by the same parents, bred to different dogs.....a breeder can help themselves possibly "pin point" where the problem may actually be coming from. (prevention).
5) IF the genetic problem arises a 2nd time (from one of the previous parents)....I would simply eliminate that dog from any future breedings. (solution).
*To me...because a genetic issue can arise in any litter.....I would want to know if it was an isolated incidence...or is it more than that.
Robin
 
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