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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all,

This question is directed to all breeders and non-breeders (owners) of GSD’s and came as a result of reading many posts on this (and other) board(s).
Please note that my intend is not to point fingers at anybody in particular, nor to bash breeders or non-breeders (owners).

Just want to have your honest comment and opinion - that is all.

I have read on many posts and forums (including this one) that breeders complain about honesty of the potential GSD buyers - hence to prove the seriousness for purchase, in most cases buyer must give some sort of deposit in advance. There is nothing wrong with this, and I support this request.
However, let’s say the breeder tells you that your are 3rd on the waiting list for certain litter. You send in deposit thinking that you are 3rd on the waiting list. Then few weeks later you realise (in the conversation with the breeder) that you are 3rd on the waiting list for a certain sex in the litter (male or female).
I know that most of the breeder contracts will say something along these lines "if we happen not to have enough puppies from this certain litter due to unforeseeable events, your deposit will be moved to the next available litter (sometimes they add “of your choice”) in our breeding".

I personally find that this line in the contract is not fair to the buyer.
Why? Well let’s say that there was a reason why you put your deposit for that specific litter (blood lines, personal choice, you love the dam, sire, etc.) Hence, in my opinion with this contract line you are faced with 3 choices:

1. Wait for the next available litter and get a puppy from the parent you did not want (plan) to get it in the first place. (e.g. To exaggerate - I came in to buy Cadillac for $100 you told me put a $10 deposit...... 1 month latter - oh sorry we don't have Cadillac anymore, here is a Chevrolet for $100)

2. Wait X amount of time (sometimes years) until this specific mating pair has repeated mating.

3. Pull out, go somewhere else and lose your deposit all together.


As the breeder or the owner of a GSD, what is your personal opinion on this situation and line in the contact?
Is this line of contract, presented with the situation described above fair to the buyer?
Would it be fairer towards everybody if the buyer in only this case (no exceptions) would be allowed to receive his/her deposit back and go somewhere else to get a GSD?
(E.g. Cadillac dealership in Phoenix does not have certain car model available and will not have certain model available in the near future, do you think if it’s ok that buyer receives his deposit back and go to Cadillac dealership in San Antonio to by the certain car model he was looking for)?


Thank you all for your honest answers.
 

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I've found with a few breeders it's clear that if you do not get the puppy needed (sex, sometimes color, drive/personality/etc.) from the litter you deposited on, that the deposit will be transferred OR refunded.

With others they state it can be transferred, which I do feel is unfair, but I would think that if you talked to the breeder and explained your reasoning, they would let you have your deposit back after the litter you wanted did not produce what you needed, kwim?
 

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The breeder we've use twice does not accept deposits but she will put you on a waiting list. You pay for the puppy the day you pick it up.
 

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As a breeder, I take deposits only after puppies are on the ground.

If I cannot provide the puppy at the proper time -- say two puppies die. Then I should return the deposit.

If I have the puppies available, but the buyer for one reason or another has decided not to purchase, too bad, deposit is non-refundable.

Life happens, if something happens that makes this a really bad time to get a puppy, my deposit allows the buyer to transfer the deposit to another litter, but must be used within 18 months.

Mostly though, I look at the deposit as a contract. Both parties are agreeing to conditions. I agree not to sell the puppy reserved for this buyer. They agree to buy it. If they back out, it means more work for me.

I think most breeders are more than fair on how they handle deposits. Buyers just want it all. They want a slot on the waiting list, but they want their money back if it does not turn out as they had expected. When people back out on breeders, the common opinion is tough.
 

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you said you were 3rd on the list for a certain sex - why? Did you state you wanted a male (or female)? Does the breeder think that one sex would be better than you - IE you have a dominate male already and a female is just more likely to fit into your household? Any of those and others are valid reasons for the breeder.

Did you talk to the breeder before hand and say "I am only interested in this breeding. Your other dogs are nice, but this combo I feel is best suited for me" Why does it have to be this certain litter (nothing wrong with that,just curious). What if none of the puppies will fit into your lifestyle? Why are none of their other dogs worth looking at?

Honestly, most breeders are willing to work with you as much as they can. But they can't create puppies out of thin air and they won't sell a puppy into a home that is a bad match. If they aren't able to provide what you are looking for and don't plan to repeat this breeding in a reasonable time frame, then yes you should be refunded your deposit. If you just don't trust the breeder, then you probably shouldn't have put a deposit down in the first place.
 

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If there are lines in the contract you don't believe are fair, why sign it and pay a deposit? Breeders all have their own way of handling contracts and deposits. I need to see the contract before I sign or agree to anything. If I don't like it, I can simply move on to another breeder, or ask questions if I'm misunderstanding something. I guess I would be talking to the breeder rather than asking for interpretation here.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
you said you were 3rd on the list for a certain sex - why? Did you state you wanted a male (or female)? Does the breeder think that one sex would be better than you - IE you have a dominate male already and a female is just more likely to fit into your household? Any of those and others are valid reasons for the breeder.

Did you talk to the breeder before hand and say "I am only interested in this breeding. Your other dogs are nice, but this combo I feel is best suited for me" Why does it have to be this certain litter (nothing wrong with that,just curious). What if none of the puppies will fit into your lifestyle? Why are none of their other dogs worth looking at?

Honestly, most breeders are willing to work with you as much as they can. But they can't create puppies out of thin air and they won't sell a puppy into a home that is a bad match. If they aren't able to provide what you are looking for and don't plan to repeat this breeding in a reasonable time frame, then yes you should be refunded your deposit. If you just don't trust the breeder, then you probably shouldn't have put a deposit down in the first place.
Dainerra,

My feeling is that you are trying to turn things around...And I was wondering why? My questions are honest questions, and it said nowhere that this is happening to me or anybody that I know....If you read my text completely you would realize that this was just a theoretical thinking on my side which constructed the questions in my first post.
So I will try to answer your questions as best as I can - based on the theory (not actual facts) although I think that you did not read (understand) my original question in full.

1. "You said you were 3rd on the list for a certain sex - why?" - Because that person is the 3rd (could be 4th, 5th, 6th) who put a deposit for the female from this litter. Breeder accepts this deposit regardless of the number of people already on the waiting list.
1. "Did you state you wanted a male (or female)?" - Yes person did state that.
2. "Does the breeder think that one sex would be better than you" - No
3. "I am only interested in this breeding. Your other dogs are nice, but this combo I feel is best suited for me" - Yes person stated this.
4. "Why does it have to be this certain litter" - Question back to you - Why do you prefer (for example) Toyota Highlander over Toyota 4Runner - they are both cars from reputable car manufacturer and cost pretty much the same.
5. "What if none of the puppies will fit into your lifestyle?" - This question does not make sense to me, and I find it irrelevant for this topic.
6. "Why are none of their other dogs worth looking at?" - This questions sounds like a salesman pitch trying to sell you something that you are just not interested in. Also to note is that nowhere in the original topic was stated that the person might not be interested in other dogs from the particular kennel.

"If they aren't able to provide what you are looking for and don't plan to repeat this breeding in a reasonable time frame, then yes you should be refunded your deposit." - This statement I agree with 100%

" If you just don't trust the breeder, then you probably shouldn't have put a deposit down in the first place." - With this one I also agree 100% - however the original question in this topic is not whether someone trusts the breeder or not.

Please don't take my answers personally. I am just trying to find out what would be the honest breeder move in the situation described theoretically in my first post.
 

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My breeder only takes a couple of deposits on each litter. In my case, I talked with my breeder for a long time about what I'm looking for as far as gender, color, nerves, drives, dominance level, etc. I met her dogs and would be happy to have a pup out of any of them. We agreed in advance that I was placing a deposit on a male, sable puppy with balanced, moderate drives and a middle-of-the-road temperament, suitable for a house pet and obedience/agility/ low-level SchutzHund. Before I put down my deposit she made clear to me that the next available litter might have only females, or the only sable boy might be a little monster only suitable for high-level SchH or police work. (not likely as this is a more balanced breeding, but possible) I said I understood this and was willing to wait for the specific puppy that fits my needs and even color preference. She produces a lot of sables. :)

I think every puppy buyer needs to sit down with their breeder and have a clear conversation like this. A) What am I looking for? Specific color/gender/personality? A puppy specifically from this breeding and no other? B) What happens if this litter doesn't produce what I'm looking for?

In my case, I'm willing to wait for another litter if this one doesn't produce specifically what I'm looking for. I'm impressed enough with this breeder compared to some of the others that I've seen, I'm willing to wait for a dog from her. Someone else might want to take their deposit and go elsewhere. It's all about communication before the deposit is placed.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
If there are lines in the contract you don't believe are fair, why sign it and pay a deposit? Breeders all have their own way of handling contracts and deposits. I need to see the contract before I sign or agree to anything. If I don't like it, I can simply move on to another breeder, or ask questions if I'm misunderstanding something. I guess I would be talking to the breeder rather than asking for interpretation here.
Liesje,

Well said, agree with most of your statements 100%. (not all " I guess I would be talking to the breeder rather than asking for interpretation here" since this is a theoretical question)
However some people tend to send deposits before the contract is shown since breeder is not willing (for whatever reason) to show the contract before she/he gets the deposit - This (sending deposit before contract is shown) is a big no-no but people still do it. Your points are excellent. Good advice for somebody who is looking to buy a GSD puppy.
 

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We placed a deposit and in the event that the color/sex we wanted was not produced the $$$ transferred onto the next little of our choice.
 

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If I have the puppies available, but the buyer for one reason or another has decided not to purchase, too bad, deposit is non-refundable. .
How often does this type of buyer end up taking the puppy rather than losing the deposit? Do you want your puppies to start out their lives in homes where they really aren't wanted?

I think most breeders are more than fair on how they handle deposits. Buyers just want it all. They want a slot on the waiting list, but they want their money back if it does not turn out as they had expected. When people back out on breeders, the common opinion is tough.
Great for the breeder if the people don't take the puppy, and the breeder gets to keep the deposit but again,what happens if they take a puppy rather than lose the deposit? Isn't a breeder supposed to be concerned about where their puppies end up?

I agree with whoever said the buyer has a choice, agree to a contract before you sign it or look someplace else, but the "you either take the puppy or lose your deposit" attitude doesn't speak real highly about the breeders concern for their pups.
 

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My advice would be to any buyer: NEVER send a deposit, or sign a contract unless you are absolutely clear and certain on the terms and agreement.
READ the contract FIRST....IF there are terms that are "questionable"...discuss them PRIOR to any monies or signatures are given......most breeders will "adjust certain terms & provisions"..as long as it is fair to both parties involved.
Most breeders will refund a deposit on puppies from a specific litter, if due to circumstances beyond the seller or buyers control....
JMO
 

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However some people tend to send deposits before the contract is shown since breeder is not willing (for whatever reason) to show the contract before she/he gets the deposit - This (sending deposit before contract is shown) is a big no-no but people still do it.
IMO, when people do this, then things end up badly, they have no one to blame but themselves!

The BUYER controls the money, if they want to see the contract BEFORE they pay a deposit, all the have to do is ASK. (Which obviously they SHOULD.)

If they don't, I just can't feel badly for them if they get "messed over".
 

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Liesje,

Well said, agree with most of your statements 100%. (not all " I guess I would be talking to the breeder rather than asking for interpretation here" since this is a theoretical question)
However some people tend to send deposits before the contract is shown since breeder is not willing (for whatever reason) to show the contract before she/he gets the deposit - This (sending deposit before contract is shown) is a big no-no but people still do it. Your points are excellent. Good advice for somebody who is looking to buy a GSD puppy.
I guess if people are willing to pay for something without seeing a contract or really knowing what they are getting, that's their choice, but then they cannot criticize the breeder. In that situation I don't have any advice or sympathy either. I would never send someone a deposit before seeing the contract and if a breeder ever insisted I'd probably laugh at them. With my recent puppy I was sent a contract before I even asked to see it. I went over it very carefully and asked several specific questions. Once I was satisfied with the answers, I sent my deposit certified mail.

Not all breeders use contracts or deposits. I have another dog I never paid a deposit for and do not have a detailed contract for either. I own the dog in full and any problems with the dog are my responsibility. I would not blame the breeder for anything that comes up or expect the breeder to have to pay for it or "replace" the dog. I bought the dog knowing that a dog is a living creature and there are no "guarantees".

There doesn't have to be lengthy contracts or deposits but both parties need to be clear and in agreement, that is what matters. If there are any questions or disputes I simply don't see why someone would go ahead with purchasing a dog and then complain about it. I know you are asking a hypothetical question which is fine, but we see real threads like this all the time on the pedigree board, people starting flame wars with breeders over things that should have been cleared up a long time ago.
 

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I think it DOES all come down to whether or not you trust the breeder. Why would you ever enter into a contract with someone you don't trust? Why would you send a deposit to someone who said "I'll show you what you are agreeing to after you pay for it"? Ever heard of buying a pig in a poke?? I think it goes down to honesty - it's a 2 way street. Breeders deserve to protect themselves from dishonest buyers and they can choose not to sell a pup to someone that they don't trust. Buyers have an obligation to themselves to only deal with a breeder that they trust. A lot of breeders don't deal with the situation as "Ok, there are 4 females and 5 people paid a deposit for a female. Persons 1, 2, 3, and 4 get a puppy in the order that the deposit was paid" Instead, they will say "Puppy A is the best match for Person 2, Puppy B is the best match for this family, etc etc" So, in that case the person who placed their deposit FIRST might not get a dog while the person who placed a deposit 2 days before the pups go home might. Personally, I would much rather get a dog from a breeder who matches personalities instead of whose check cleared first.

That is why I said "what if none of the pups will fit into your lifestyle. For example, you want a female puppy. You are a first time GSD owner, but have some dog experience. You have young children and a busy life so you want a fairly laid-back dog. You place your deposit well in advance and are first on the list for a female. The litter has 1 female, but she is very high drive and needs a home that will give her a job - Schutzhund, herding, whatever. Do you think the pup should go to whoever paid their deposit first, even if the owners and the dog will be miserable?

I assumed that the person wasn't interested in any other dogs because you said "1. Wait for the next available litter and get a puppy from the parent you did not want (plan) to get it in the first place. (e.g. To exaggerate - I came in to buy Cadillac for $100 you told me put a $10 deposit...... 1 month latter - oh sorry we don't have Cadillac anymore, here is a Chevrolet for $100)" This again goes back to my question of "what if none of the pups fit your lifestyle" To use your analogy, what if you want a Cadillac to drive Grandma to church and all this car lot sells is highpower sport cars? Would you still take one even though Granny might have a heart attack on the freeway?
 

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How often does this type of buyer end up taking the puppy rather than losing the deposit? Do you want your puppies to start out their lives in homes where they really aren't wanted?



Great for the breeder if the people don't take the puppy, and the breeder gets to keep the deposit but again,what happens if they take a puppy rather than lose the deposit? Isn't a breeder supposed to be concerned about where their puppies end up?

I agree with whoever said the buyer has a choice, agree to a contract before you sign it or look someplace else, but the "you either take the puppy or lose your deposit" attitude doesn't speak real highly about the breeders concern for their pups.

The deposit is two hundred dollars. I would rather sell a puppy than keep somebody's $200. I am not making out at all going back to square zero now at finding the right buyer for that pup. If I turn down people for puppies because they are all sold, calling them back up three weeks later -- they ALL have found another breeder.

So, it is an serious inconvenience.

If the timing is not right, as I said, I will transfer a deposit and have done so a couple of times.

But what happens is the people find another puppy somewhere else, wait until I call them, and then tell me that they decided not to get it at this time, and can they have their money back.

A contract/deposit goes two ways, not one. I agree to hold the puppy, you agree to buy the puppy, if you do not, then you lose your money. If I do not sell you the puppy (my decision) than I have to refund the money -- and I can get legally in trouble for doing so, and certainly I could get a bad name for that.

This is just a one sided business. Breeders are villianized for taking money for what they do. Backing out of the deal really does inconvenience the breeder and they should be compensated for it.
 
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