German Shepherds Forum banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,420 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I know we’ve talked about Quanto recently. Quanto von der Wienerau

He was born in 1967, 51 years ago, but can be found 10 or more generations back in current dogs’ pedigrees. If a WL dog today has Quanto in its bloodlines, does that mean the WL also has SL in its heritage? Does that mean any breeder using a Quanto progeny is mixing lines? Or do 10+ generations dilute the influence so much it does not count? 51 years ago there were not the distinctive line differences there are today. Does that make a difference? I don’t have a stake in the outcome, I’m mostly curious. My previous dogs have had some very overused WGSL dogs in their pedigrees, but it did not affect the dogs negatively. My first one was a Uran progeny.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
851 Posts
My understanding is that Canto/Quanto and the Martin brothers are the split. It's not uncommon to find Canto and/or Quanto in a working line pedigree, but you won't find back massing on these lines in modern working lines.

The bloodlines that became our current working lines may have used Canto/Quanto, but quickly went away from them in favor of dogs like Bernd/Bodo, Marko, Mutz, etc. While the lines that became our modern show lines focused on the angulation and black and red coloring with back massing on Canto/Quanto.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,296 Posts
Quanto had excellent character. A number of very knowledgeable working line breeders incorporated him into their bloodlines. That was when people actually knew about proper structure, and tried to maintain it. Quanto and Canto we're not the split, has always been one. However, it was a common practice for the show line crowd to use both in their pedigrees for improving structure. The Canto/Quanto cross was heavily advertised. Canto is the dog known for poor temperament and health. Quanto was beneficial to the breed. I saw sons and daughters that were simply gorgeous with wonderful temperament and character. Breeders nowadays are so caught up in prey drive and "quick twitch", they seem to have forgotten ,(or maybe they simply don't know), about other important aspects. They have mistaken good nerves for a friendly dog who is genetically incapable of protecting its owner. What people don't seem to know is that the dogs back then had more social aggression and absolutely required good nerves. A level of composure to regulate the social aggression/ protective instinct in the dogs. So many dogs now really would not protect or stand up to the same level of threat that the dogs back in those days encountered. And no, I am not claiming there weren't poorly bred dogs back then, but the good ones were very good dogs. Strong nerves, tough, intelligent, protective. Quanto in a pedigree absolutely does not mean that the dog lacks in some regard. Although I suppose it would matter how many times he appears. Unfortunately, the show crowd went a little but cirque with the number of times both dogs appeared in their pedigrees. Breeding is a balancing act and smart breeders knew how to use that dog. And they did combine them with the Lierbergs et al.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,452 Posts
Quanto was an excellent dog! I bred to a Quanto son in late seventies and every puppy was strong in temperament. And he was not just mixed with Canto ( like often seen today), the male I used also had Busecker Schloss and Bernd v Lierberg in first three generations with Quanto.
As one person said, the backmassing on Canto/ Quanto for past 10 to 15 generations have been the issue. I know of some very nice dogs that have Quanto in back of pedigree in one of the four quadrants, that many new working line people see it and think the dog or genetics are weak. You have to look at total pedigree !
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,420 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Thank you. I thought so. I’m searching through pedigrees right now. I ran into both of them, but the one you mentioned was linebred in the pedigrees I am looking at.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,452 Posts
Marko vom Cellerland.
Marko vom Cellerland, next to Bernd v Lierberg, arguably the finest example of the breed through the years. World Seiger, prepotent for balance, versatility, and working traits in a structurally sound body. Produced excellent temperament and strong colors/pigment, good Herding instincts, and is still foundation of working lines today. He was only usurped by the Martin brothers influence on the breed, to the detriment of the breed!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,452 Posts
Marko vom Cellerland, next to Bernd v Lierberg, arguably the finest example of the breed through the years. World Seiger, prepotent for balance, versatility, and working traits in a structurally sound body. Produced excellent temperament and strong colors/pigment, good Herding instincts, and is still foundation of working lines today. He was only usurped by the Martin brothers influence on the breed, to the detriment of the breed!
One other thing, Marko, Quanto, Mutz, ( the VA dogs of that period and others) were NOT SL dogs. This designation as we know it today ( with almost totally being Black and Red/Tan) is a creation of the Martin brothers through the backmassing of Canto/Quanto and a little Mutz. The BACKMASSING created the SL as we know it today. Even Canto who because of lineage( his mother, Zilly) and temperament was not awarded VA status, when bred to progeny of Bernd and Busecker Schloss and Haus Dexel And Kirschental produced high workability....( I had granddaughter of Arras Haus Helma who was very very strong).
It was the continued breeding of Canto/Quanto sons and daughters to each other over 10-15 generations that have created the solid Black and red type dog known as SL dogs. When you saturate that much of two primary dogs, then you see a saturation of their primary traits...both good and bad. So Canto really improved gaits that he was so well known for....but he also increased the traits that kept him from being VA likewise.....this isn’t hard to figure out if you do your homework and look at what is in front of you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
851 Posts
I think the simple fact that the dominant color in our breed is completely absent in wgsl dogs speaks volumes about the state of those lines. Nothing but cookie cutter black and reds. You can hardly tell a difference from one dog to the next looking at a wgsl pedigree.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,420 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
My first WGSL was a Uran dog. Uran vom Wildsteiger Land He is a Quanto progeny. His sire was Irk Von Arminius. Much of this is new to me, so I started looking at the v Arminius dogs and don’t see linebreeding listed in the pedigrees I looked at. Is that the kennel that brought in so much inbreeding? Where can I read more about the Martins?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,296 Posts
Regarding the comment about color, I started in the 70s you rarely saw a sable German Shepherd. Almost all of the working dogs were black and tan. Little by little, we saw more and more sable dogs but make no mistake, those dogs came with some issues. No, I'm not saying that sable dogs are not good dogs but I don't think it's a particularly great development that the working line dogs for the most part, are either sable or bi color. Sometimes good working traits link to color and some of the things that we lost by not using those bloodlines can't be recovered.
Busecker schloss was the kennel known for gray dogs. And also Bungalow. The Bungalow dogs could be very stubborn, had out problems and we're generally not the easiest dogs to train. There were nerve issues etc.
The more things split apart the worse it is for the breed. And it continues to happen. Now the working trials are more like shows and as a result, the breed will continue to deteriorate.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,513 Posts
Regarding the comment about color, I started in the 70s you rarely saw a sable German Shepherd. Almost all of the working dogs were black and tan. Little by little, we saw more and more sable dogs but make no mistake, those dogs came with some issues. No, I'm not saying that sable dogs are not good dogs but I don't think it's a particularly great development that the working line dogs for the most part, are either sable or bi color. Sometimes good working traits link to color and some of the things that we lost by not using those bloodlines can't be recovered.
That's interesting, I don't think I've ever heard colors and associated heritable traits talked about in working context. Only some talk here and there that solid black dogs seem to be more common now than in past decades, and some arguments about "old school" advice not to cross sable to sable, or risk pigment loss. Which goes back to aesthetics, rather than workig traits.

I'd be curious for details. :)
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top