Puppy Kindergarden? This one too strict?

7853 Views 66 Replies 16 Participants Last post by chruby, Jan 13, 2008

Cooper&me

Discussion Starter · Jan 3, 2008

Petsmart only had one pup in the class time I wanted so I signed up for First Friends PK. They raise, sell and compete German Shep so I thought this would be ideal.

My breeder said just find a place at this age that kept the learning light and focused on socialization.

The class size is 10 pups, large agility type room. For the first week we focus on the clicker, sit in front and come around and sit on the left?
I asked if they use the prong collar. She said no (phew) maybe by week 5. (yikes) that would make Cooper 16 weeks.

Am I in too deep? Cooper is laid back and easy going but WILL be a large dog and I DO want to be on top of things but I also believe intimidation does not produce well rounded dogs.

Thoughts? I will read the course book and see whatelse worries me.

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wrenny

· #2 · Jan 3, 2008

My puppy K had heeling and all the basic commands. Some lenghty heeling and stuff.

No prong collars. That's definately too young. Maybe she was saying she'd train YOU on them for future use? I dunno.

jesusica

· #3 · Jan 3, 2008

Prong collars are a no no in puppy k.

Castlemaid

· #4 · Jan 3, 2008

Puppies are little learning sponges. It doesn't sound like it is too much if it is positive, fun and rewarding for the puppy.

No need for prongs for a puppy. Sounds like your trainer is pretty flexible on the issue. Just say no

.

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doggiedad

· #5 · Jan 3, 2008

no prong, no prong. my puppy classes were light and fun. there was 4 puppies in the class. there was clicker training going on. we didn't do any of the clicker training. i'm not a fan of it. we were there for the socalizing. it was at our vets office so they did everything. mocks examinations, they would ride the exam table up and down. the exam table is electric and it goes all the way down to the floor and up to waist high. bubble wrap was on the floor in one of the rooms and they had to walk across it. the humanes liked that part also. there were cats there that would come up to the puppies. there was a tunnel in front of one of the doors that puppies had to walk through to go into another room. nail clipping, mouth exams, etc. it was a great class. also by it being at the vets office i didn't have to go there when he wasn't being treated. i always take my dogs to the vet when their not being treated so they don't associate the vets office as a place of discomfort. we go there and vet would just pet them and give them treats and maybe just rub here hands over him or look is mouth or something. now when go to vet it's fun time.get alot of socializing in with people, dogs, cats, the woods, the city, car rides etc. expose them to as much as you can. good luck and stay on this site. these people really know dogs. they also really about the GSD. good luck!!!!!

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doggiedad

· #6 · Jan 3, 2008

how old is your dog? my dog didn't do any real training untill he 4 months. he house broken, knew his name and was comfortable with his collar and crate. check around and see if he's to young for formal training?

big_dog7777

· #7 · Jan 3, 2008

Too young for prong... YES. Too young for positive inductive formal training... NO. I don't like formal healing at this age, but that is a personal preference for the dog I want to develop. Sit, down, recall, recall, recall, recall (get how important that one is?), focus, etc is quite appropriate to teach positively and the perfect time for a trainer to work with you as well.

wrenny

· #8 · Jan 3, 2008

Originally Posted By: doggiedadhow old is your dog? my dog didn't do any real training untill he 4 months. he house broken, knew his name and was comfortable with his collar and crate. check around and see if he's to young for formal training?

I don't think hes too young for it. He needs the socialization and before 4 months is key to that socialization.

The basics were taught good in puppy K but when we did heeling it was just hit or miss. If your dog didn't get it, it was okay because he's a puppy. It was all for socilization and seeing other dogs and new environments for Puppy K.

Cooper&me

Discussion Starter · #9 · Jan 3, 2008

Thanks for the responce. I read the course handbook and it di not mention the prong so maybe I miss heard the lady. Also the handbook was stressing positives so I feel better. One ting they wanted us to work on (Iwill not) is the suborninance roll. Pinning the puppy down for x amount of time so the pup KNOWS you have physical dominance over him. PLEASE! I have done it once but I hope I have the balls to refuse the exercise inclass. I am not known for my backbone but I am pumping myself up. At this point disagreeing with one exercise is not worth cancelling.

Also they insist on Bordetella for all the pups? I have to run to the vets today and get that done.

big_dog7777

· #10 · Jan 3, 2008

Great. Another class that teaches the alpha roll. My opinion is that I would not work with this class unless you are 100% prepared to say no and not do certain things the instructor is asking. My Spidey sense is tingling. Something tells me this will be bad.

KTM450SX

· #11 · Jan 3, 2008

What is the alpha roll? Is that when you pin the pup on his side until he calms down? I have been doing that when he attacks my feet or he will not stop biting my pants/feet. Is that bad? The only other thing I have been able to do is tell him Bubba SIT!, and he will Sit as thats the only trick he seems to know right now and he gets a treat for it.

wrenny

· #12 · Jan 3, 2008

Originally Posted By: KTM450SXWhat is the alpha roll? Is that when you pin the pup on his side until he calms down? I have been doing that when he attacks my feet or he will not stop biting my pants/feet. Is that bad? The only other thing I have been able to do is tell him Bubba SIT!, and he will Sit as thats the only trick he seems to know right now and he gets a treat for it.

I have to do the same when he bites constantly. This is my last resort after trying to redirect or yelp but usually always ends up in me holding him away from me until he stops biting. I let him go, he bites again, I hold him again. Repeat and rinse about 5 times before he gives up. Nothing else I can do.

big_dog7777

· #13 · Jan 3, 2008

An alpha roll is when you pin a dog on it's back or side to dominate them and "show them who's boss". It's a great way to get bit with some dogs, and a great way to inhibit the crap out of puppies.

When you puppy bites your feet redirect him to a toy that is safe for him to bite. If he is not interested in it, make prey movements with it (like a rabbit would make). Once he bites that praise him.

KTM450SX

· #14 · Jan 3, 2008

I have tried that giving him a toy, he will sit there growling at my foot while he eats my shoe, squeaking his toy and bouncing it in front of him does nothing. I tried a new thing today I poked my finger in his side (not hard) when he was going to town on my foot and he lost focus of my shoe so I said SIT! and then he did and i gave him a treat.

big_dog7777

· #15 · Jan 3, 2008

That's called flanking, and it's painful. Just my opinion. My focus with puppies is to exercise and train to tire out the mind and body. If the pup can then relax and settle in, great. If not, that is what I have a crate for, and this is coming from someone with a working line high high drive dog. I want my puppy to be a puppy. Nothing more.

3K9Mom

· #16 · Jan 3, 2008

Keep in mind that when a wolf pins another animal on its back, the wolf is saying "I Will Kill You." Then he usually does.

That's what the Alpha Roll teaches your pup about you, how trustyworthy you are, and about your relationship.

KTM450SX

· #17 · Jan 3, 2008

Hmm ok thanks.. I'll keep trying the toy thing, sometimes he is just obessed with latching onto my feet. Normally he does it when playing fetch he will get his toy start running back to me, half way he drops the toy and goes for my feet.
Silly puppy!

selzer

· #18 · Jan 4, 2008

My brother was taking Tori to puppy classes while I was taking Heidi. They got Tori when she was nine weeks old from me. She was an outgoing little pup. They missed week one of puppy at ten weeks. by week four they were talking special collars and alpha rolls with the trainer. They missed week six and gave me Tori back.

I am glad I got her back. The poor thing smelled like a smoke stack. They said she was defiant, didn't get along with their seven year old bitch, was too interested in the cats, and was deliberately peeing in the house.

She hasn't had an accident in my house since I got her back. She is not defiant, not even at sixteen months old. She is more afraid of some people than any of my other dogs.

Was this because of alpha rolls? I do not know. I do not think they put a prong on her. I have once or twice, but generally do not need it. I have not needed to put a prong on a dog that was less than 10 or 12 months old.

And she does not get along with any of my other dogs except her father.

Positive puppy training is the only way to go.

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BowWowMeow

· #19 · Jan 4, 2008

Originally Posted By: mjb03Thanks for the responce. I read the course handbook and it di not mention the prong so maybe I miss heard the lady. Also the handbook was stressing positives so I feel better. One ting they wanted us to work on (Iwill not) is the suborninance roll. Pinning the puppy down for x amount of time so the pup KNOWS you have physical dominance over him. PLEASE! I have done it once but I hope I have the balls to refuse the exercise inclass. I am not known for my backbone but I am pumping myself up. At this point disagreeing with one exercise is not worth cancelling.

I would find a different class to take. If they are teaching the alpha roll then you can be sure they will be teaching other coercive techniques that are not healthy for your relationship with your puppy. See if you can find a socialization class with some positive, reward-based training or a clicker class.

I trained my first gsd following the advice of the Monks of New Skete (this was 20 years ago). It was all about control and dominance. One of the most valuable lessons I learned about training puppies was from that very dog. When I got Chama I used the same techniques. Chama was a very soft dog so I didn't need to be as coercive with her but when she turned about 4 months old her prey drive kicked in and if she saw a bunny or squirrel she would fly over my fence and take off. One day I was running through the neighborhood chasing and calling her and Massie was right behind me. When Chama came back (as she always did) I was so angry that I immediately alpha rolled her and started screaming at her. Massie stepped in between us and physically backed me off. She did not growl or bark at me, she simply pushed me away from Chama. I understood immediately that she was telling me that Chama was just a pup and that I needed to treat her with respect and kindness and not with dominance and anger.

Since then I have completely changed my approach to and attitude about training. And my relationship with my dogs has vastly improved.

Your opinion will not be valued in this class. Find another one.

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KTM450SX

· #20 · Jan 4, 2008

Moved post

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