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Do you punish your dog *after* the fact (you did not catch him in the act.)

  • Yes

    Votes: 11 10.9%
  • No

    Votes: 90 89.1%

  • Total voters
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Discussion Starter #1
This is a spinoff of another thread, but rather than take that thread way off course, I thought I'd just start a new one.

Do you think a dog has a "memory"? Do you think your dog "knows" he did something wrong hours later?

I've always believed a dog has "associations," if he does this or that, he gets this or that, but not a memory as much per se.

I thought this was why people finally abandoned (well, most people) rubbing a dog's nose in their pee hours after the fact. I've never punished for any bad behavior I didn't catch in the act. Do you? (punish after the fact) ? Do you think the dog ties the crime with the punishment?
 

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No.

If I had a two year old who spilled juice on the carpet and I only happened to notice it 30 minutes later, I would never drag him over there point at/rub his nose in it/yell "NO BAD CHILD". He would never get the association. (I wouldn't punish him for spilling juice regardless).

That would be ridiculous. And I feel it's just as ridiculous for a dog to understand the association that I'm trying to convey, long after the incident has passed.
 

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No. A dog associates something within 2-3 seconds. After that you are to late.
Sorry but I just have to disagree with that. At least with our dogs and friends dogs if the dog used the bathroom in the house and even if it is several hours later they do still associate that it is there mess and depending on the level of potty training that they werent suppose to use the bathroom there
 

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I don't punish for things after the fact. As far as how much memory they have I know they have some because Sasha definitely knows that men aren't to be trusted (because of her past) and she still believes when she does something "bad" (like throw up on the floor) that she's going to get punished. You can see it in her body language that she believes something bad is about to happen. So they obviously have some associative memory but as punishing them after they've done something bad and you didn't catch it...I don't know, so I don't punish for it.
 

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Sorry but I just have to disagree with that. At least with our dogs and friends dogs if the dog used the bathroom in the house and even if it is several hours later they do still associate that it is there mess and depending on the level of potty training that they werent suppose to use the bathroom there
Actually, they're more than likely thinking that you and your friends are total psychos, and punishing a dog for pottying in the house in this manner will cause them to think, "Oh, I can't put it where they'll see it or they'll go insane and stick my face in it." Then they will try and potty out-of-sight, making your job harder. It may work for some dogs, but others will hide their potty spots.

I feel like dogs are very 'in the moment.' Yeah, they will eventually associate certain things that will rapidly change our mood in a negative way, but for them to associate that the reaction is coming from us due to what they did is unrealistic, IMO. For example. You think the dog is housebroken, so you leave him out. Come home, the house is DESTROYED. Yeah, you're probably going to get mad. Dog associates destroyed house to your anger, not the fact that he destroyed the house.
Would I punish the dog? No. I'd probably put him in another room while I cleaned up and could calm down, but I wouldn't yell and scream and go nuts.
 

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I don't ever punish my dogs after the fact, if I don't catch them in the act there's nothing I can do about it.

I have noticed though if Odin happens to get into something while i'm gone (he seems to have a habit of taking dishes out of the sink if they're left) and I come home, instead of greeting me enthusiastically at the door he'll usually walk up to me and then either go in his crate or lay down in another room, even before I notice anything is out of place. I've never punished him for this, so I find it kinda amusing that he gives himself away beforehand.
 

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Sorry but I just have to disagree with that. At least with our dogs and friends dogs if the dog used the bathroom in the house and even if it is several hours later they do still associate that it is there mess and depending on the level of potty training that they werent suppose to use the bathroom there
You can disagree all you want but it's a fact. Look it up.
 

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It seems to me that Ravyn tells on himself as soon as I walk in the door. I know if he's done something before I see it. He generally doesn't get "punished" for much of anything. I may however scold him once in a while after the fact.
 

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Konotaski when did i ever say that we stuck there faces in the potty? all i said was that they associate they are suppose to go to the bathroom there and that is it is theirs.
 

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Read Temple Grandin's books for a great idea of how the "dog brain" works.
She proves that they do not "know they did bad".

"Animals in Translation" - I highly recommend it.
 

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Konotaski when did i ever say that we stuck there faces in the potty? all i said was that they associate they are suppose to go to the bathroom there and that is it is theirs.

If you have a multi- dog home you'll see your theory is wrong.

Because the dogs we have not had since puppies, we can tell which were "nose rubbed" and the like.
Someone else may have an accident (and with two dogs with spinal damage, it does happen) and the ones who were struck or nose-rubbed will start shaking because all they know is, "there's poop on the floor and when there's poop on the floor, I get in trouble!"

Therefore they do not "know it is theirs". They are afraid/guilty looking because they associate it with mad humans.
 

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If you consider a strearn look "punishment" then I say yes.

All it takes for my dog to understand that I am displeased is a stearn look.

Early in her building our trust to have free roam of the house she made mistakes. Coming home to shredded newspaper or raiding bathroom trash cans for example. Finding the mess she left would prompt a stearn look & as the mess was picked up waived it in front of her so she understood why we are displeased.

When there is no mess she gets happy praises & lots of pets.

She began to know when she has been bad & when shes been good. If she is waiting by the door, tail wagging, she was good.

Dogs are smarter than most people give credit. They remember despite the belief of "live in the moment".

This method has worked for us because she is 100% reliable, has full run of the house.

Others here that would argue my method have dogs much older still being crated due to their untrustworthiness.
 

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I don't ever punish my dogs after the fact, if I don't catch them in the act there's nothing I can do about it.

I have noticed though if Odin happens to get into something while i'm gone (he seems to have a habit of taking dishes out of the sink if they're left) and I come home, instead of greeting me enthusiastically at the door he'll usually walk up to me and then either go in his crate or lay down in another room, even before I notice anything is out of place. I've never punished him for this, so I find it kinda amusing that he gives himself away beforehand.
Karlo will do similar "give it away" behavior. One of my dogs had diarrhea about a month ago for a couple days(from getting into the cat food) When I'd come home Karlo would jump up on me. He never does this unless he is anxious or stressed. I didn't reprimand any of the dogs for it, they knew I was dissapointed to have to clean that mess up, I'm sure. They do understand more than we give them credit for.
 

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No, punishment needs to happen within 2 seconds.

If my dogs act "sorry" it's because they can tell I'm disappointed, not because they know why. If this was a "fact" then why does my dog Pan eat socks or panties any chance he gets, then act "sorry" and then do it again an hour later? Because he has no idea what he's doing is "wrong".

If I need to stop/prevent something from happening I use management (don't leave socks on the floor, put the dog behind a baby gate, give him something else he can chew on).
 

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If you consider a strearn look "punishment" then I say yes.

All it takes for my dog to understand that I am displeased is a stearn look.

Early in her building our trust to have free roam if the house she made mistakes. Coming home to shredded newspaper or raiding bathroom trash cans for example. Finding the mess she left would prompt a stearn look & as the mess was picked up waived it in front of her so she understood why we are displeased.

This method has worked for us because she is 100% reliable, has full run of the house.

Others here that would argue my method have dogs much older still being crated due to their untrustworthiness.
Most dogs outgrow destruction once they get out of the teething phase.
Your dogs were reacting to the sound of your voice - they knew you were upset with them, but they didn't know why.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
....I have noticed though if Odin happens to get into something while i'm gone (he seems to have a habit of taking dishes out of the sink if they're left) and I come home, instead of greeting me enthusiastically at the door he'll usually walk up to me and then either go in his crate or lay down in another room, even before I notice anything is out of place. I've never punished him for this, so I find it kinda amusing that he gives himself away beforehand.
Well that is interesting. You say he does that before you yourself notice anything, so you're not giving off any "vibes" in that case. So that is kind of an argument "for" the dog "knows he did wrong" side. Is that the only instance that he doesn't greet enthusiastically? When he's pulled something out of the sink, etc?

I'm honestly just trying to learn thru this, I find it really interesting.!
 

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Not saying anyone had to agree with me but we do have a multi dog house and we can tell tell the difference. but thats us. everybody seriously enough with the assumptions when did i ever say we showed anger towards the dogs.
 

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Body language gives you away. Even if you don't think you gave off any signals you were upset, they can tell.
Dogs go by body language, even the slightest change will indicate to them something is different/wrong.
 
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