[tim_s_adams]

I don't know enough about biology or the gut microbiome to have an opinion on this topic, and the article below references studies done on humans, not dogs. But I thought the papers were interesting. In particular, to quote the article briefly, "Once the probiotics had colonised the gut, they completely inhibited the return of the indigenous microbiome which was disrupted during antibiotic treatment,...”

So I thought I'd share the article below and ask those who do know about more about this topic what they think of these studies. Thoughts?


https://www.theguardian.com/science...-as-previously-thought?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

[carmspack]

hardly a scholarly study .

soliciting for money at the end to support their "Guardian" group

in the opening they say -- "when taken in conjunction with anti biotics"

---

try Dr , turned medical journalist Michael Mosely vs the Super Bugs

I had provided this before in the thread - post anti biotic age.

probiotics are going to be critical as there are so many pathgenic bacteria which are
resistant to anti biotics .

we are loosing the race.

multi - million $$$ awarded for the continuation of probiotic research - allergies, sibo , PEANUT allergy

research and funding and good results in probiotics and mood disorders - brain gut connection

 

[Magwart]

The Guardian was one of many major news sources reporting this yesterday. Not all of them actually reported on the studies underlying the press release that caused the flurry of news stories.

This reporting does a decent job describing the two studies that led to the headline, and their limitations:
Gut Feeling: Why Probiotics Might Not Be a Good Idea for Everyone | Mental Floss

There's been a steady trickle of skepticism about whether commercially available probiotic supplements are doing all the things we think they're doing -- beyond just helping with diarrhea. This presents a fairly balanced view of the on-going research:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-probiotics-really-work/


Here are the small-study research papers that generated the news flurry yesterday:
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(18)31102-4
and
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(18)31108-5

The research on good stuff done by naturally occurring gut flora hasn't necessarily been connecting all that well to the billions of supplement capsules being sold. I think that we're in early days of probiotic research -- and I think strains really matter, but we're only just barely starting to understand their complexity.


The complexity to me is reflected in the whip-saw existence of Seres Pharmaceuticals, a tiny biotech company launched to develop probiotic-based treatments of infections like C. diff where antibiotics are failing. They had a devastating failure of a Phase 2 clinical trial -- what they developed just didn't do what they thought it was going to do. Now they're thinking maybe that failure wasn't quite the failure that it seemed:
https://www.biopharmadive.com/news/seres-rekindles-once-failed-microbiome-study/438366/
And money is pouring back into the research space:
https://www.biopharmadive.com/news/spotlight-microbiome-deals-collaborations-manda/517459/

(Disclosure: I own a few shares of Seres and think their research is incredibly important. It's "high risk" money I can afford to lose if it doesn't pan out--and most early biotech doesn't pan out...but I really hope it does because humanity needs it to.)

 

[carmspack]

in the Michael Mosely video that I sited , an experiment under medical scrutiny, the volunteer subject , Mosely,
had a new, unexpected , anti biotic resistant bacteria .

altering his micro biome had opened up and allowed colontization of this pathogen.

probiotic strains matter very much.

it took less than a few months to acquire this pathogen and over a
year and one half to eliminate and recondition his gut flora.

this is on going research , as one in the field said , we are finding and
winding our way . This is relatively new territory.

had the hunt for an anti biotic stopped with patient number one
Albert Alexander dying then the world would look totally different.
Many of us just would not be here .
Many of us would have succumbed to a bactrial infection.
Thanks to those that kept looking.

now we have to correct - get back in the lane , just like a car that has been
over steered .

probiotic benefits may be their preventive role. That they do not allow pathogens to take hold.
This done through immune , preventing adhesion and the creation of an anti biotic effect.

that is the look into spore forming bacteria which include soil based organisms.

 

[crittersitter]

I take all these reports and studies with a grain of salt. When you have seen first hand them make a difference in humans and animals that's all I need to see to know they are worthwhile.

 

[Dunkirk]

My bottle of Saccharomyces Boulardii+MOS reads:

NOTE: For immune compromised individuals and children, please consult your healthcare professional before using this product.

My dog is taking Cyclosporine, an immunosuppressant. I checked with my vet, who checked with the pharmacist. I was surprised with the verdict, NOT to give my dog probiotics with Cyclosporine. I'd love to know why.

 

[Magwart]

This Ars Technica article does a really good job going through the study design on both the studies that made the news, in a very readable way:
https://arstechnica.com/science/201...op-them-out-they-may-muck-up-your-guts/?amp=1


It connects it to other research, including a 2016 review of randomized controlled studies concluded that the tested probiotics were ineffective -- and previous studies with similar conclusions, along with research on theoretical benefits that ought to be happening but often aren't materializing when tested. It also goes over the problems with studies that are testing poop instead of going up into the intestine with a scope to test -- the poop-test method may actually may be skewing results unfavorably. So study design may have a big impact on results.



What the new research may point to -- which is important -- is that probiotic supplementation may possibly suppress (and ultimately weaken) the natural/indigenous microbiome's capacity to recolonize over the long term, even while helping in the short term. That's new, and VERY interesting. It's too early and too small a study to conclude it with certainty, but it's an incredibly interesting result. The microbiome is proving itself to be vastly more complex than we yet understand.



We may be headed to more emphasis on pre-biotics to feed and nourish the indigenenous microbiome. Or custom probiotics matched to the indigenous one during periods of dysbiosis.



It's a good read.

 

[Jenny720]

I heard things about probiotics about not being very beneficial. Presently I thought probiotics can only either be beneficial or not beneficial. my health needing a boost picked up some reAlly strong probiotics and did not think of them as harmful which after reading this thread sounds like they can be which is all very concerning and more confused.

 

[tim_s_adams]

As I said before, this is not an area I know alot about, but it is Good science! Opens up many new avenues of inquiry that could very well lead to more effective, and hopefully less invasive, methods of testing an individual's current microbiome, and "customizing" - i.e. optimizing - pre or pro biotic treatment for maximum benefit! I don't see these studies or any of their results as being anti-probiotics, quite the contrary! Just data points in the seach...

This Ars Technica article does a really good job going through the study design on both the studies that made the news, in a very readable way:
https://arstechnica.com/science/201...op-them-out-they-may-muck-up-your-guts/?amp=1


It connects it to other research, including a 2016 review of randomized controlled studies concluded that the tested probiotics were ineffective -- and previous studies with similar conclusions, along with research on theoretical benefits that ought to be happening but often aren't materializing when tested. It also goes over the problems with studies that are testing poop instead of going up into the intestine with a scope to test -- the poop-test method may actually may be skewing results unfavorably. So study design may have a big impact on results.

Another interesting conclusion IMO, was their finding of considerable differences between the indigenous microbiome present in different locations in the GI tract of a single individual. As well as their observation of "receptive" versus "resistant" differences in different subjects...

And yes, interesting too "because" it calls into question the "results" of any study that relied solely on fecal sampling to reach their conclusions.

What the new research may point to -- which is important -- is that probiotic supplementation may possibly suppress (and ultimately weaken) the natural/indigenous microbiome's capacity to recolonize over the long term, even while helping in the short term. That's new, and VERY interesting. It's too early and too small a study to conclude it with certainty, but it's an incredibly interesting result. The microbiome is proving itself to be vastly more complex than we yet understand.



We may be headed to more emphasis on pre-biotics to feed and nourish the indigenenous microbiome. Or custom probiotics matched to the indigenous one during periods of dysbiosis.

It's a good read.

Like all good science, results often lead more toward new areas of inquiry than they do toward any definitive "answers"! My reading of these papers was, not that they SUGGESTED that probiotic supplementation delayed restoration of the indigenous microbiome, there were no outliers! That is, restoration of the indigenous microbiome was delayed universally in all subjects who took probiotics. But what does that mean, and is that "necessarily" a bad thing? Need more data LOL!

It may turn out that temporarily supplanting the indigenous microbiome has advantages in the short term that far outweigh the disadvantages of the delay. Or it could be that better customization of the strains of probiotics utilized would drastically alter recovery time. Or it could be that prebiotic treatments could help transform pro biotic "resistant" individuals into "receptive"...the list of lines of inquiry, in my mind, go on and on! And that IS good science!

 

[tim_s_adams]

Other probiotics research in the news...

https://www.washington.edu/news/201...lar-trees-clean-up-toxins-in-superfund-sites/

 

[Magwart]

One thing that has me somewhat anxiously awaiting the DCM food research is that in 2003/2006, some research found that the dogs' gut flora + beet fiber was causing taurine to be degraded and excreted at levels leading to deficiency. Though the "take away" from that old research has mostly been "avoid beet fiber," it's worth remembering that was also the era when pet food companies started spraying probiotics on dog food too, after letting it cool down, right before bagging it. I've wondered if the combination of added plant fiber (now it's pea fiber that's common) + the added probiotics being sprayed on after the food cools might actually be an issue now with the latest round of taurine problems (stuffing the kibble full of fiber that will jumpstart the probiotics that will degrade the taurine).

This is just speculation based on those old papers about gut flora and beet fiber -- which was the first inkling, 15 years ago, that dog gut flora plays differently with certain foods than ours do.

I wonder if we may have been making the same mistake as consumers that we made with glucosamine pills -- studies of those pills came up empty too, but that doesn't mean whole-food sources are empty. Maybe the mistake will some day turn out to be buying capsules and powders with lab grown strains when we should have been eating sauerkraut and other fermented foods with strains local to our environment, in a form our bodies know how to use. I'm just musing -- but as someone who's spent a lot of money on probiotics for people and dogs, it's got me thinking!

 

[Jenny720]

My bottle of Saccharomyces Boulardii+MOS reads:

NOTE: For immune compromised individuals and children, please consult your healthcare professional before using this product.

My dog is taking Cyclosporine, an immunosuppressant. I checked with my vet, who checked with the pharmacist. I was surprised with the verdict, NOT to give my dog probiotics with Cyclosporine. I'd love to know why.

This article mentions possible bacteria in blood stream from probiotics when the immune system is compromised. I’m not sure if the same in dogs. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna891801

 

[Dunkirk]

Thank you!

 

[unfortunatefoster]

Magwart: Keep musing. I have been fermenting cabbage w/garlic (a prebiotic) for quite a while. It only occurred to me to give it to Simon when I couldn't get a probiotic to curdle milk, meaning it was killed from shipping or improper storage. I found that I can use less enzymes with the kraut, as well. Win/win.

The kraut has far more probiotic strains and many more of them, to boot. It's such an easy process and costs much less than a quality probiotic that offers little in the way of variety of bacteria.

I see those eye rolls and one click purchases of gas masks, but trust me, there is no downside. No gas or rumbling, better poop and Simon clearly has more energy. Of course, we have been dealing with all kinds of issues for the past year and it is possible he is finally healing on his own. With his rabies vaccination being due, if no reaction occurs, I think this may be the ticket.

No special equipment is necessary. I use 1/2 gal mason jars, not a crock. I did get the glass weights and I do use airlocks, because I make vinegar, too. I don't want cross contamination or to have jars in every room of my house, but neither is required. Give it a go and if your dogs don't want to eat it, eat it yourself.

 

[Beau's Mom]

Oh, yes, @unfortunatefoster , tasty stuff and so easy! I like cabbage, garlic, ginger, and a little carrot for color. Ferment in Fido hard or mason w/airlock. Wasn’t sure if it was ok for dogs because of the garlic. Will try it.

 

[Beau's Mom]

Jars, not hard. Annoying spell check.

 

[LuvShepherds]

I’m more confused than ever. I just read in another thread that probiotics from kefir are good for dogs, but I was told not to give my dog milk products. I read someone else that probitiocs help prevent disease, but here it seems like they are worse. I haven’t had time to read all the articles listed here, but I’m very concerned.

 

[dogfaeries]

You could use goat kefir. Goat milk is way easier to digest than cow milk.