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targeting and creating the leap Schutzhund Village

" I feel that this method brings great success with dogs who do not naturally strike hard. The dog strikes the helper frontally right from the start without realizing it because he should be completely mesmerized by the last second movement of the sleeve"

the written version in Das Schaferhund Magazin April 2007 has many more pictures

I see what some of the others are saying. That the stronger dogs seem to come in faster and harder as a general observation. This is an 18 month old male I work often. For a long time he would do this bunny hop type launch. It was more up than out and just very awkward. Believe me, I wanted to work on this because it used to drive me crazy. Then one day without training it, he just started launching nicely. From a helper standpoint, I prefer the way he launches. It's very predictable and consistent. Hagan Long bite - YouTube
 

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hi Lisa (Carmen, "joe" as in Kuhn? :eek: :rofl: )

Joe Kuhn , my much missed friend --- remembering him , as all times , March being the month that he passed away -- March 1998.

Had been on the phone with him that day just hours before getting notice that he passed away.
He was very very happy -- we were doing a little challenge and having fun with it .
 

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mycobra that is a difficult question to answer in the manner that you asked it , because that answer would be conditional. Thresholds to what ?
Prey drive is a basic necessary component . It can't be absent.
When provided in balance it sets dynamics into play . When absent you are or too low it is like sitting off the side of the road with a wheel that has fallen off. Too much and you have lost your brakes and you are going forward fast , careening without control till you run out of gas or hit something .

Once again pulling from experience with the racing greyhounds and whippets that my friend tried to rehabilitate for rehoming . Those dogs' zone of irritability , where they would notice movement and prepare to go chase was huge . Always on always ready.

For our GSD a dog with too much prey could never be a suitable herding dog . Remember this is at the core of the behavioural package. HIC and border collie type herding (non tending) are not indicators for herding qualities in THIS breed . The duration is much too brief . Too much prey .
One critic , would say the modern HGH trials is "trained" , brief (snapshot of a moment) , too small a herd , and involves ACTION, movement . The herding tending dog had long periods , maybe a day , longer , when there was no activity . The sheep , a herd which could number in the thousands had to be able to graze peacefully . As long as they didn't cross the borderline the could move freely, even run to the next sweet spot , without interference from the dog. His purpose was to act as that living fence . The dog still needed to be in drive , creating that fence line , do so without instruction and micro managing and do so reliably even in the absence of the shepherd.

An over the top prey drive dog would have been too easily stimulated into reaction . High reaction is paired with lower thresholds.

The best drives are active . Under control , with middle thresholds .
 

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Excellent analogy and post, Carmen! This is what many breeders don't understand....I expect it out of sport participants because too much prey serves their interest, but breeders need to understand the importance of balance, nerve, and versatility.....the cornerstones of the breed, IMO.
 

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thank you Cliff .

Can you rely too much on prey drive ---- YES . I think van Oirschot pretty much says this in an interview

quote

"If we want to improve the temperaments and use the instrument of the Breed Survey (Korung) should this be done by a more severe courage test (combative spirit) or must we have improved behavioural testing? Is demanding a harder courage test by working judges the solution?
At least we should debate it and not leave it to a delegate meeting of the SV where delegates are deciding in a polluted atmosphere of polarisation.

*************** For instance at a Breed Survey in Holland in December 2002 conducted by myself, I breed surveyed over 40 GSD. The majority came in Class 2. I saw some extraordinarily good GSD in the courage test.*****************

On the same day DNA testing was carried out in a small room by a Vet. The dogs had to enter an overcrowded canteen. Afterwards I was told that some of the dogs which did extremely well in the courage test and had high standards in the trials, behaved very nervously when testing for DNA. Some dogs could not be tested without being muzzled. The basic temperament (Weser) is not tested in a courage test. I would prefer to leave the ring with normal in a courage test and excellent behaviour in the above mentioned situation in DNA testing

article in full
STRENGTHS & WEAKNESSES

relying on prey conditioning, prey reward, prey training --- the dog can see its way through a stressful situation --- but that does not make it sound or stable elsewhere
 

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I joined this forum purely because of this thread, it was a great read with loads of good info and I don't think I remember seeing one bit of bitchiness, awesome :)
 

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I joined this forum purely because of this thread, it was a great read with loads of good info and I don't think I remember seeing one bit of bitchiness, awesome :)
Welcome!

Good to see you here Matt.
 

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Discussion Starter #233
thank you Cliff .

Can you rely too much on prey drive ---- YES . I think van Oirschot pretty much says this in an interview

quote

"If we want to improve the temperaments and use the instrument of the Breed Survey (Korung) should this be done by a more severe courage test (combative spirit) or must we have improved behavioural testing? Is demanding a harder courage test by working judges the solution?
At least we should debate it and not leave it to a delegate meeting of the SV where delegates are deciding in a polluted atmosphere of polarisation.

*************** For instance at a Breed Survey in Holland in December 2002 conducted by myself, I breed surveyed over 40 GSD. The majority came in Class 2. I saw some extraordinarily good GSD in the courage test.*****************

On the same day DNA testing was carried out in a small room by a Vet. The dogs had to enter an overcrowded canteen. Afterwards I was told that some of the dogs which did extremely well in the courage test and had high standards in the trials, behaved very nervously when testing for DNA. Some dogs could not be tested without being muzzled. The basic temperament (Weser) is not tested in a courage test. I would prefer to leave the ring with normal in a courage test and excellent behaviour in the above mentioned situation in DNA testing

article in full
STRENGTHS & WEAKNESSES

relying on prey conditioning, prey reward, prey training --- the dog can see its way through a stressful situation --- but that does not make it sound or stable elsewhere
Interesting there are notable KNPV dogs I have heard about whose handlers had some concerns with the microchip check Arko Kikkert and Wibo. Not fear issues but Im sure some would have said it was nerves when in reality it was social aggression. Not dogs that were known for allowing strangers to hover and prod.
 

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one thing I would like to see changed in SchH sport is the very liberal use of the word Pronounced --- give it to those that truly deserve it .
Working line, show line . Does not matter .
I've railed about this before.
 

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Lol, indeed.

I am finding myself more and more interested in GSD's to be honest though. I have never had one but I have to say, with more relevance to the thread, I have yet to see a dog from any other breed (even the best) show the same intensity in protection as the best GSD's, the closest maybe I have seen is a really good Doberman. Mals are intense but it seems in a different way if you get me.
What really strikes me about the really good GSD's is their controlled, methodical take on working, they just look like they 'think' more than many Mals. Maybe I just havn't seen a good Mal work like this.
Maybe this is another manifestation of the 'prey drive' than the headlong let's get in there kind of 'prey monkey' behaviour? More stalk than chase?
 

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Matt, you are right. A good stable GSD thinks through his drives. It's a whole different world. They bring something that I have not seen in other breeds. Granted I have not worked Dobes.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 

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hi Matt , friend of mine imported a working farm raised Doberman from Sweden -- ears down and tail natural. The dog screams confident strength. So different than the local bred and even German type, in a good way.
Person goes to local schutzhund club and they try to fit the square peg into the round hole -- make him a prey dog --- which just creates confusion. Put the dog with a good decoy and clarity and the dog is a super star. He impressed me . I would have and handle him any day.
He even tracks !
 
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