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Discussion Starter #1
i am trying to get the guys i train with to do more fighting the dog during training. they are all former or current millitary/leo/rent-a-cop.

none of them are impressed or desire to train long bites, leg bites or anything much other than arm bites and upper body bites, decoy either on his feet or on the ground.

who trains the leg bite and what is yr rationale for doing so?
 

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I don't train leg bites, but I do train my dogs to bite whatever is presented. I do this by using a targeting wedge/pillow and have a decoy stand there placing it in random positions. For example, I will hold it on my left side shoulder level for one bite, right side shoulder level, right side low, left side low, center chest, above my head or between my legs. On the approach for a bite the dog learns to look for a target. That's where they will bite. Later during suit work the dog can target just about anywhere that catches its eye. As a decoy, for safety reasons I will generally provide the place I want the dog to bite. Example forearm triceps armpit or shoulder blade. It doesn't take much body positioning to draw the dog into a certain location.
 

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leg bite

I think there can be a variety of reasons to teach leg bites. Obviously, in some sports its is the prefered bite. As a way of testing a dog's nerves, some dogs might look very strong on an upper body bite but feel vulnerable on a leg bite because they know the decoy/bad guy can strike them on the head or grab their body due to both arms being free, so it is a way of assessing a dog. Culture can be a factor. In KNPV in the early days, people got around a lot by bicycles, so there would be a need to stop someone on a bike, and now it has become a traditional part of the exercises. In police work, the bad guy might be hiding under a porch or bushes, or somewhere where the dog only has access to the legs.
Regardless of whether the dog is training for sport, personal protection, police or military, I think they should become proficient at biting calves, thighs, biceps, triceps and forearms. Depending on the dog's application, one style of bite might be taught as the preferred location. Schutzhund might be the exception is you are trying to compete and a high level.
 

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Interesting thought on leg bites. I always thought it would take less nerve for a dog to bite a leg. Keeps the person farther away. My line of thinking is like a dog that bites the hand when a forearm is presented. It's engaging but wants to keep as much distance from the person as possible.
 

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There are no absolutes. It depends on the individual dog. For some dogs, the person's face is a main threat and if the dog has nerve issues, it might strike the forearm and work its way down the arm toward the hand away from the person's face. That is usually a fairly weak dog.
I have seen some dogs that arevery strong doing inside bicep bites and are right in the persons chest/facial area and their grip is very strong and doesn't change. Wen they go to a leg bite, they still bite strongly, but are wary of the person's upper body and quickly want to shift the bite to an upper body bite. Sometimes that is telling you something about the dog's nerves and sometimes it tells you about the training, such as too much imprinting on upper body type bites.
 

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Interesting thought on leg bites. I always thought it would take less nerve for a dog to bite a leg. Keeps the person farther away. My line of thinking is like a dog that bites the hand when a forearm is presented. It's engaging but wants to keep as much distance from the person as possible.
I always thought the same, as in leg bites are more "secure" and "safe" in the dog's mind. I mean the dogs' four paws are on the ground, he's farther from the decoy's face, and can let go quickly since he's stable on the ground. That's my line of thinking at least, but I could very well be wrong
 

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Any dog being trained for real man work (police or PPD) needs to be proficient on upper and lower body. A dog trained only on upper body is far easier to esquive.

A dog needs options. Upper body front and back, lower body front and back targeting. Then, the dog needs to be fed bites on even more areas, so it will take whatever is a available. Finish up with some muzzle work, hidden sleeve, and realism based scenarios.

There might be some other input down in the personal protection section of the forum.
 

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I disagree with feeding police or personal protection dogs bites in several areas. We train our police dogs virtually the same way we train our personal protection dogs and we have generally the same expectations of them as it pertains to bitework.

Two solid target areas on both the upper and lower body, front and back, is more than enough "options" than any dog will ever need. When you start allowing dogs to bite anywhere they want, it simply leads to unpredictability, breakdown of their targeting, instability in their gripping behavior and the higher likelihood that they will transfer grips while they are engaging someone. We train our police dogs to apprehend, meaning bite and hold ONE place, regardless of what happens to them. We prefer them to be viewed as less than lethal force whenever possible.

I think far more important than offering all over body target areas, excessive use of muzzles, etc is the knowledge of how to appropriately scenario train your dogs/K9s. We have no problem creating very civil dogs with AND without the use of equipment, but we really don't do much muzzle training at all.

The following article is an excellent representation of what I may or may not have successfully explained, lol..

http://www.tarheelcanine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/JerryBradshaw1.pdf
 

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Discussion Starter #9
"We train our police dogs to apprehend, meaning bite and hold ONE place, regardless of what happens to them."

clearly the dog is highly expendable in this mindset.

i am leaning towards the upper body preferably arm only bite if arm is available, logically it gives more tactics to the handler and protects the dog.

outside a police apprehension dog i think it would be hard to justify a leg bite, sure you can make a right fool of a dog and it's training with the esquive but when do you ever get that much distance and speed in a ppd role, i would suggest never, like to see you justify it in court anyway.

end of the day the dog will bite the first thing in front of him under pressure anyhoo. leg bites can stay on the training field or for leo apprehension.

thanks for thoughts.
 

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what does "esquive" mean???

Any dog being trained for real man work (police or PPD) needs to be proficient on upper and lower body. A dog trained only on upper body is

>>>> far easier to esquive.<<<<<

A dog needs options. Upper body front and back, lower body front and back targeting. Then, the dog needs to be fed bites on even more areas, so it will take whatever is a available. Finish up with some muzzle work, hidden sleeve, and realism based scenarios.

There might be some other input down in the personal protection section of the forum.
 

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There are many legal clauses these guys have to comply with. Probably, they don't want to tell you that. When the attacking dog grabbs the arm ( note - LEFT arm!) he cannot cause much damage. So, you cannot look at the whole issue in any way other than a sport training. Of course you can teach your dog to bite any part of man's body. My training partner used readjustable pads and ropes - place the rope on the leg, just bind it, and your dog will bite the leg. Do you have any particular reason to teach your dog this? Do you intend to get guard dog licence?
Dogs working in military rarely leave the premises, many are too dangerous to keep them as guard dogs. They are trained to fight for their own life first of all, and they don't bite left arm. They are trained to attack from behind as well as from the front, because the man's buttocks are more vulnerable, this way it is easier for the dog to nail the man at the spot; they are trained to knock the man down, pull him onto the ground, and so on. In real situation the man might well die of blood loss. Do you believe that anyone would tell you the methods of such?
 

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what does "esquive" mean???

It means to avoid being targeted by the dog- usually by moving laterally, causing the dog to miss the bite, usually flying right by the decoy. The upper body can be moved out of the target zone of the dog far more easily than the lower body and legs, especially when the dog is entering fast, and is fully committed. This is why in some of the ringsports, where it is the decoy's job to get away from the dog, the primary target area is usually the legs.
 

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"We train our police dogs to apprehend, meaning bite and hold ONE place, regardless of what happens to them."

clearly the dog is highly expendable in this mindset.
a dog isn't going to do it's handler much good in protecting them if they are ready to willingly let go as soon as they feel any kind of pain. We teach them to work through as best and as close to reality as possible. Through repitition, successive approximation and conditioning, they learn they can "defeat" every threat they ever encounter.

Additionally, transferring from one bite to another just because they get uncomfortable is not helpful on the legal side of things. 4 puncture wounds are a lot easier to explain and justify than 12 or 16.


outside a police apprehension dog i think it would be hard to justify a leg bite, sure you can make a right fool of a dog and it's training with the esquive but when do you ever get that much distance and speed in a ppd role, i would suggest never, like to see you justify it in court anyway.
legs bites do not just pertain to speed or the training field. If I had a PPD, I would certainly want my dog to feel like biting a leg was an option if there was an intruder in my home hiding under my dining room table or under a bed in a guest room.
 

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Smh,.....how many of you people have seen the reaction of a person when the dog engages them on the street. Most bites overwhelms the bad guy, it is not a situation where the bad guy can just do what they want while the dog is on them....so the expendable comment is totally off base. People often go into shock, or start screaming to take dog off, and the ones that try to fight, a good dog kicks their game up in fight drive. I have seen police dogs taught to target, and those not taught, but in real life when those lights are flashing, the adrenalin flowing, they will bite the first thing that is available on the person whether it is arm, back or chest.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
cops i think is a bit different to security tactically speaking, not a cop but i guess most apprehension dogs are either searching/chasing a fleeing person who is more than likely an opportunistic criminal and you have 50 cop cars and cops with guns, tazers....one radio call away

security face the problem of being by yrself and a planned crime where every line of defence has been accounted for, these guys know how many dogs/men, when their shift is....they will invite a dog into a bite just so they can stab or shoot it, different context, different dogs, different tactics.
 

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I don't do true PPD but when I do SDA and do some other protection-type scenarios I encourage the dog to bite what is presented, bite hard and full, and stay there to fight ("filling up" is OK like if the dog targeted bad, or bit something that was loose like a flapping coat sleeve and then filled up to a full bite on the arm). Like Cliff says the harder the decoy fights (or if he cries out in pretend pain) the more the dog gets in the fight. I wouldn't allow a decoy to use the amount of physical force needed to actually cause my dog to back off, kind of defeats the purpose of the training IMO. In training I am rewarding the dog for getting a good bite and staying in the fight. If no body part is being presented, I prefer the dog to bite the collar bone or the armpit (target the armpit front or back) so that's what I encourage in training but in real life....I don't think it would really matter. The dog will bite what he can, fill up his grip if needed, and fight.
 

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Your expendable comment was made in reference to a POLICE tactical use....listen to Taggert or Connell or Britney and learn some first hand knowledge of real bite work whether it be police or PPD. Not trying to be snarky, but sometimes your advice sounds rather academic or Internet based and not based on practical application....which makes it not really realistic. That's just my take, I could be wrong and if so I apologize.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
hey man, you never need to apologise for anything, i respect and treasure every word, for real. yes my knowledge is developing for sure but hey one near miss when yr all alone + dog just seems to escalate you up roe ladder and you try and pre-think the what if's. some things you want to avoid learning by trial and error, just sayin. personally i hope i NEVER have a live bite, just like my pre-dog days i avoided a fight at all costs, wasn't always successful. if it means anything the guys i get occasionaly to train with have been thru it all and seen it all and as first posted they don't specifically train a leg bite but don't discourage it either.
 

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hey britney i was just curious with your training in police patrol dogs is most of your work done with the dogs biting thin jackets then? since leg work is not done much? Also hidden sleeves?

x11 police dogs do crowd control also
 
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