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Discussion Starter #1
A recent thread that revealed a clear case of fraud makes me interested in understanding more about the rules. I have no idea if this is the proper place to start this thread. I actually wanted to put it in the "Weekly Discussion" section but discovered I was not authorized to start a thread there.

In any event, I am really curious why this so called "breeder bashing" rule exists in the first place and what the parameters are in terms of alerting people to outright fraud.
 

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I don't know myself, but I would certainly want to know about a shady or unethical breeder if there was hard evidence and not just "he said, she said" third, fourth, and fifth person stories that could possibly be rumoured to maybe have a shred of possible truth.

I sort of thought everyone here tried to help everyone else in all manner of GSD, but this is one area that seems to be taboo, which in reality should be the highest on the watchdog list to keep people in general, and particularly members here from getting screwed.
 

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In short, the owners of the board doesn't want to be responsible for a slander lawsuit based on hearsay. To avoid this, everything negative is done through private messages.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I understand the he-said/she-said debate. But, look at sites like Angie's List and Yelp - open forums! You get a range of opinions. And, as a user, you can look through the pros and cons, and actually learn from them! When you see a lot of user reviews, you can find patterns within them and understand those that best fit your sensibilities. When everything is private, it is a big mystery!

I would think a site like this would want people to have a full set of knowledge in choosing a breeder. It is weird that this subject is so taboo.

I actually think most breeders who post here would welcome open reviews. They should, because a full set of reviews will help people understand what kind of homes are good for their dogs.

I would hypothesize that good breeders don't worry about the quality of their dogs, they worry more about the quality of the homes they send their dogs too. More info on what is actually a good home for their dogs should be welcome information.

Now, as most of you know, I am, and always will be a rescue/shelter person when it comes to finding a pet. But, I have been on this board enough to recognize that those who are intent on buying from a breeder NEED better input. I always imagine that for every person who posts about looking for a breeder, there are probably 500 who are just lurking and never benefit from PMs.

Anyway, I think it is somewhat ridiculous that in this day and and age the owners of the board really worry about liability. It seems like that could be handled easily in the way they set up the terms of the board itself. I mean, really, look at everything that is reviewed online in an open forum... those sites seemed to have managed liability issues, why not this one!
 

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In this day and age you wouldn't believe the silly minor stuff people get their panties all in a knot about and are contacting board owners and administrators with threats of legal action!

If information is in the public domain, i.e: verified news articles, court transcripts, etc, then it is part of Current Affairs and can be discussed openly. Even the situation here that you are referring is a buyer/breeder disagreement. Even though in this situation, we can agree that the breeder is openly deceptive, we would need the force of a court of law behind us to prove it! And the breeder can just as much turn around and argue that the buyer is the one who is setting them up to look bad by making up the whole story, posting pics of random dogs they found on the internet (may argue that those are not the pics they sent), and that the pup shown in not the pup they sold the buyer, but another dog they got from somewhere else, and is now using pics and videos of this pup to try to scam the refund price of the other pup they sold them (you know, the actual pure-bred one the buyer is hiding and not showing anyone), etc, etc, etc.

I mean, this is the internet!!! ANYONE can say anything and post pictures from anywhere and make up stories about anything at all! Who, on this board are we to police all that?? Though there is absolutely no reason for us to doubt the veracity of the member's posts, and see through the blatant deception of the breeder/seller, many times there is much more to the story than what is presented.

Best thing to do is to help people get educated, so they can recognize a responsible breeder from a con-artist, and recognize red flags that pop up, and know what to look for and what questions to ask.
 

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LifeofRiley does make some good points though. With websites like Yelp where everything is rated and reviewed... how is this website any different?

Why would this website be responsible for lawsuits and Yelp and other similar type websites can continue to operate without having to worry about stuff like that?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
In this day and age you wouldn't believe the silly minor stuff people get their panties all in a knot about and are contacting board owners and administrators with threats of legal action!

If information is in the public domain, i.e: verified news articles, court transcripts, etc, then it is part of Current Affairs and can be discussed openly. Even the situation here that you are referring is a buyer/breeder disagreement. Even though in this situation, we can agree that the breeder is openly deceptive, we would need the force of a court of law behind us to prove it! And the breeder can just as much turn around and argue that the buyer is the one who is setting them up to look bad by making up the whole story, posting pics of random dogs they found on the internet (may argue that those are not the pics they sent), and that the pup shown in not the pup they sold the buyer, but another dog they got from somewhere else, and is now using pics and videos of this pup to try to scam the refund price of the other pup they sold them (you know, the actual pure-bred one the buyer is hiding and not showing anyone), etc, etc, etc.

I mean, this is the internet!!! ANYONE can say anything and post pictures from anywhere and make up stories about anything at all! Who, on this board are we to police all that?? Though there is absolutely no reason for us to doubt the veracity of the member's posts, and see through the blatant deception of the breeder/seller, many times there is much more to the story than what is presented.

Best thing to do is to help people get educated, so they can recognize a responsible breeder from a con-artist, and recognize red flags that pop up, and know what to look for and what questions to ask.
You could make the same argument against anyone sharing an opinion about anything that is often discussed and debated on this forum - food, training, vets, natural remedies, safe toys, shelters, rescue.

This is the internet... the whole point is to see multiple opinions and determine which ones make the most sense to you!
 

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Here's the reality: Privately owned board, they can do what they want, heh
 

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is it the owners of the board or the Mods making the decision
about breeder discussions?

In short, the owners of the board doesn't want to be responsible for a slander lawsuit based on hearsay. To avoid this, everything negative is done through private messages.
 

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I believe the admins and owner make the rules, mods enforce whether they agree or not.

There are PLENTY of outlets to air grievances and bash breeders.
 

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I agree with the rule. Time and time again I have seen people with ZERO personal experience with a breeder rip them a new one based on a poorly designed web page or based on truly minor grievances. I have also rolled my eyes at some of those who are worshipped and adored for no specific reason.

When someone is looking at a breeder and you have something negative to say....there is the ability to send a Private Message. If you want to participate in a feeding frenzy, all you have to do is go to PDB and see what happens when breeder bashing is unmoderated.
 

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Well, you can say that you have experience or knowledge about breeder XYZ and you would not recommend them, if someone is asking.

There are other dog boards where people are allowed to be as negative and as attacking as they want, and good breeder's names are dragged through the mud on a regular basis by scammers (scammers come in both varieties: buyers and sellers).

Since there are THOUSANDS of big and small GSD breeders in North America, both big and small, it is IMPOSSIBLE to police and determine who is right and who is wrong.

Again, in the case that you mention, it is ONE individual that is lying and scamming, and I, and board's admin and owner's, are not in the business to publicly destroy private individuals. There are many, many, many reasons and examples why we have a rule about no breeder bashing, and it stands.

So bottom line, do your research, and take personal responsibility for your decisions, and not point fingers at the internet's fault.

As for products, If I post that I like bouncy ball X better than bouncy ball Y, I"m posting a personal preference over an object, and not bashing a human being for being unethical or being a liar.
 

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I remember a thread about a breeder and the fact that soft ears(among other problems) were common in the breeders history. Several people and this board were threatened by the breeder of being sued for slander. Thread was deleted. This was before the board changed ownership.

Breeder is still producing those soft ears!
 

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It's one thing to be producing dogs like that. It's an entirely different matter if the breeder is not telling the customer that fact.

There is no law in the land that says ears must stand on a GSD's head, but if they don't and the buyer is expecting a dog to conform to the standard and the breeder advertises as such, then buyers should know there is a potential that a puppy may not meet the standard.
 

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The ears eventually stand with help. The breeder has the price bracket system...I doubt the buyers even think of things like soft ears. They are too wowed with all the champions way back in the pedigrees.
 

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You could make the same argument against anyone sharing an opinion about anything that is often discussed and debated on this forum - food, training, vets, natural remedies, safe toys, shelters, rescue.

This is the internet... the whole point is to see multiple opinions and determine which ones make the most sense to you!
Food/nutrition threads should be monitered as well....I'd hate for a large petfood conglomorate to sue the board and members for posting opinions on what they are manufacturing.
 

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If someone came on the board and posted negative things about a breeder, the first thing I do is look at the POSTER.

Is it someone that has been on the board for awhile or did they just join and start accusing?

Is it someone that has breeding experience?

Is it someone that REALLY knows the types of dogs the breeder is producing? For example, is a person with an American line saying negative things about a breeder that produces working lines?


For me it all comes down to - am I going to take ONE persons' word - a STRANGER - about a breeder or am I going to do my OWN RESEARCH and decide for myself??
 

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I'm a breeder, I've been bashed, I'm still here, I'm still breeding. Many on here don't like my dogs, my puppy buyers love them. Wait until I publish my book, I'm sure Ill have those who like it and those that don't.
Most bashing done by those on this board have no personal knowledge of the breeder or their dogs. They filter the German shepherd dog through lenses that fit their mindset - if it doesn't filter through, then they bash based on their perspectives. True education as an adult never happens until one can open their lens and allow for a different perspective to enter and then take the time to understand and appreciate that other perspective. Until that occurs, there will never be perspective transformation.
Whew, that wore me out.
 

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Lauri outlined the biggest issues with allowing people to post about breeders.

A huge issue with online reviews for me is that usually you only get negative reviews or experiences. People that are happy with the product, don't usually take the time to let others (strangers) know about it. But if they have a bad product, they want to let the world know and affect the purchases of that product in the future.

Like...if I get a dog from a breeder, and its exactly what I expected because I did my research, why would I make an online review of them saying that I got exactly the dog I wanted? It's a waste of time....I'll just enjoy my dog.

Look at this website...how many more members do we get because people have PROBLEMS rather than just wanting to learn more about their amazing animal? I'm one of those that joined because I had a problem...

I don't know how many times I've seen a poster with less than 10 posts to their name decide to bash a line of dogs due to incorrect information or just bias from lack of experience. It upsets me when that happens since then new people will read it and not pay any attention on who's writing it and what's behind that opinion.
 
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