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Hi everyone,

I am looking for an at-home PPD trainer in and around Staten Island, NY. My club is more of a sport oriented club so I'd like a helper that works more closely with PPDs and K9s.

My dog is an IPO3 dog. I'd like to get him off the equipment. I'd like to work on the following:
1. hidden sleeves
2. muzzle work
3. environmental work (unstable environments, new environments, crowded areas, wooded areas, etc etc etc) - but we already do that at our club.
4. At home control. I have a nice control over him when someone is at the door. He does bark like mad at the door until I come down, look, and tell him to go up the stairs. This gives me a nice clear area to greet the guests etc while he waits up the stairs to say hello. With that said, I've never have an intruder. I would need someone with hidden equipment so I can work on control in a safe manner.

If you know anyone in the NYC area please PM me with their information.

I hope I cleared up any misconceptions on what I'm looking for. It's not that I don't think my dog will bark at & bite an intruder. It's that I'd like to setup some realistic scenarios so I can work on my control during these scenarios.

Plus, it's fun. Being a SchH helper myself I'd love to learn some new helper techniques and work.
 

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One basic exercise to get him more man oriented is to have the decoy in a suit with the dog on a tie out. Have the decoy hold and present a sleeve by holding the cuff and sleeve handle if it has one and prersent it to the dog to bite. The dedoy backs off for a second or two and then walks into the dog, possibly agitating him with a whip or aggressive posturing/yelling. The goal is for the dog to drop the sleeve and bite the suit. Of course, the dog should have been trained where to target the suit before doing this. You can do the same thing with a hidden sleeve.
 

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The main problem you will face, especially if you started your dog in IPO before it was mature, is the dog has learned to be friends with the helper, is playing a game, and has learned that the prey object/equipment is the target of his bite and not the man. Also, the strict obedience in IPO teaches the dog to a degree that people are stronger than he is because the handler controls the dog's behavior.
You would need to switch to scenarios that maximize the dog's suspicion level. Work him at night in dimly lit areas. Cue the dog to alert and have the agitator come out, avoiding eye contact with no equipment. Repeat this in different sitations for a while to stimulate the dog's defense. At some point you would want the agitator to strike the dog with a hose to show him the agitator is a real threat. Doing this will depend on what you know about your dog's temperament.
People do shift sport dogs over to PP dogs, but IMO, dogs with the genetics to do PP that are raised with little disciplne and not started in bitework until they are mature, make better PP dogs.
 

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One basic exercise to get him more man oriented is to have the decoy in a suit with the dog on a tie out. Have the decoy hold and present a sleeve by holding the cuff and sleeve handle if it has one and prersent it to the dog to bite. The dedoy backs off for a second or two and then walks into the dog, possibly agitating him with a whip or aggressive posturing/yelling. The goal is for the dog to drop the sleeve and bite the suit. Of course, the dog should have been trained where to target the suit before doing this. You can do the same thing with a hidden sleeve.

It's an IPO3 dog... I'm pretty darn sure, he's got the basics down. :crazy:
 

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He certainly has the basics and more of grip, striking, guarding and outing. But these behaviors have been learned in the context of a very exciting game for the dog, where the dog has learned he will never be hurt and the helper is not an actual threat. These factors tend to be a handicap in real situations where the dog might be required to bite.
 

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You are making some pretty big leaps about how the dog was trained in Schutzhund.....
 

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He certainly has the basics and more of grip, striking, guarding and outing. But these behaviors have been learned in the context of a very exciting game for the dog, where the dog has learned he will never be hurt and the helper is not an actual threat. These factors tend to be a handicap in real situations where the dog might be required to bite.

The dog doesnt always see the decoy as a total threat. It depends what the decoy is doing. The dog should see the decoy as a fighting partner. Someone to spar with. When its over and the dog is diffused. The decoy isnt in any danger with or without a suit unless the handler commands the dog to attack again. The dogs aren't stupid they know whats going on. The dogs who see the decoy as a real true threat all the time are ones who stay in real pure defense all the time also. They are the ones who are weak and dont fight for very long and bolt really quick. In sport some dogs are just fixed on the sleeve and don't look at the man at all. They are just too into the equipment. But not all dogs are like this, many dogs still stay focus on the man. A good dog will still maul the helper and bite him good if the dog is civil.
 

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Chip, I think you're making some big assumptions about the dog was trained. Also, if you work a dog in defense every session then you end up with a dog that's forced to bite. At that point you have lost. Those are the dogs that will run first opportunity they get. Yes I have seen it on more than one occasion. Also you create a dog that is unstable in public. Then what's the point of a PPD if you can't have it with you? The dog should be confident and enjoy the work.
 

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It is very difficult to convert an IPO dog to a real PPD, UNLESS the dog is naturally civil, or the dog was introduced to bite work through suit at same time as sleeve. Otherwise, it is extremely difficult to get most of today's dogs to not focus on the sleeve if started that way.
 

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Chip, I think you're making some big assumptions about the dog was trained. Also, if you work a dog in defense every session then you end up with a dog that's forced to bite. At that point you have lost. Those are the dogs that will run first opportunity they get. Yes I have seen it on more than one occasion. Also you create a dog that is unstable in public. Then what's the point of a PPD if you can't have it with you? The dog should be confident and enjoy the work.

Yeah Good decoys usually switch the dog back and fourth inbetween prey and defense eventually good dog goes into like a fight type mentality. Like a mixture of the 2. Thats why a lot of dogs will enjoy fighting decoy or i am sure a lot of police dogs love their patrol work also and catching bad guys.
 

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Just curious what happens to most IPO dogs when introduced to a jacket and pants? Then have pressure put on them with a stick? Anyone know? most common issues?
 

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As I explained in pm Pet4life, the key for police dogs is good fight drive. The dog can be civil, the dog can be a little more defense than prey, the dog can be a little more prey than defense, the dog can be very balanced, but the dog must possess good fight drive to want to fight the decoy and even dominate him if possible. This separates the patrol dog from sport dog or average pet. Also, the breed has lost the good natural suspicion/discernment traits that was always part of the breed. This is due to more breeders that are breeding for pets, sport, and show, thus creating a dog that does not have good suspicion/discernment/fight drive. That's why to create PPD it first starts with having the right material in the dog.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Oh god.... does every thread *have* to turn into IPO vs PPD, Sport dogs vs *real* dogs, or showline vs working line on this forum?

With all due respect, I asked a simple question. I'm not interested in having this thread turned into a 10 page bickering between *real* and *fake* dog proponents, whatever that means.

With that said, it is an open forum, so it is out of my control. But there's a reason I seldom post here anymore - it got really boring talking about the same things every time!

JMO
 

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I don't think it matters that much how the dog was trained. BY the time a dogs earns an IPO III, there has been so much conditioning to develop a refinement in style, such as with the B&H, the knows it is just a game and does not perceive the helper as a threat. Now if the dog was taught a B&H from a police dog perspective, the dog would never get close enough to the decoy because the decoy would teach the doh he needs to stay out of striking range.
THe PP dog worked in defense has to have the correct genetics and be mature.
 

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I don't think it matters that much how the dog was trained. BY the time a dogs earns an IPO III, there has been so much conditioning to develop a refinement in style, such as with the B&H, the knows it is just a game and does not perceive the helper as a threat. Now if the dog was taught a B&H from a police dog perspective, the dog would never get close enough to the decoy because the decoy would teach the doh he needs to stay out of striking range.
THe PP dog worked in defense has to have the correct genetics and be mature.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 

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A couple of us were trying to give clarity as to the differences so as to help in choices made....but since this doesn't help:(, then sorry I posted and good luck in what you find.
 

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Oh god.... does every thread *have* to turn into IPO vs PPD, Sport dogs vs *real* dogs, or showline vs working line on this forum?

With all due respect, I asked a simple question. I'm not interested in having this thread turned into a 10 page bickering between *real* and *fake* dog proponents, whatever that means.

With that said, it is an open forum, so it is out of my control. But there's a reason I seldom post here anymore - it got really boring talking about the same things every time!

JMO
You had some very knowledgeable people chime in with their opinions....it's responses like these that keep them from chiming in in the first place....

You get bored/annoyed talking about the same things every time, yet you bring up the very subject you wish not to talk about?....:cool:
 

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You had some very knowledgeable people chime in with their opinions....it's responses like these that keep them from chiming in in the first place....

You get bored/annoyed talking about the same things every time, yet you bring up the very subject you wish not to talk about?....:cool:
Some people should learn how to read.

Hi everyone,

I am looking for an at-home PPD trainer in and around Staten Island, NY. My club is more of a sport oriented club so I'd like a helper that works more closely with PPDs and K9s.

My dog is an IPO3 dog. I'd like to get him off the equipment. I'd like to work on the following:
1. hidden sleeves
2. muzzle work
3. environmental work (unstable environments, new environments, crowded areas, wooded areas, etc etc etc) - but we already do that at our club.
4. At home control. I have a nice control over him when someone is at the door. He does bark like mad at the door until I come down, look, and tell him to go up the stairs. This gives me a nice clear area to greet the guests etc while he waits up the stairs to say hello. With that said, I've never have an intruder. I would need someone with hidden equipment so I can work on control in a safe manner.

If you know anyone in the NYC area please PM me with their information.

I hope I cleared up any misconceptions on what I'm looking for. It's not that I don't think my dog will bark at & bite an intruder. It's that I'd like to setup some realistic scenarios so I can work on my control during these scenarios.

Plus, it's fun. Being a SchH helper myself I'd love to learn some new helper techniques and work.

First of all, OP is not a newbie. OP is a helper, has titled dogs, and is quite knowledgeable.
OP asked a specific question and that question was if anyone knew a PP trainer in Staten Island/NYC Area and put out exactly what he's looking for.

All the talk about real dogs etc. is quite off topic because all OP is looking for, is in fact, a PP TRAINER, hence the topic is under "Finding a good Trainer" and not in the PP subsection. :rolleyes:
 
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