German Shepherds Forum banner

541 - 560 of 682 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
292 Posts
I completely disagree with this.

I can take a student that has never held a leash before and help them become a decent handler in a couple months. You put them with a crap dog and you get crap. You put them with a rock star and you get a good team. The handler is often the dumb end of the leash.
How many times would you say the issues you see are the dogs fault?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,518 Posts
How many times would you say the issues you see are the dogs fault?
If genetics weren't critical then why not go to a pound and save a life?

Dog breeds are purpose bred to genetically exhibit specific behavior traits. Form follows function. This is what gives us dog breeds capable of being highly successful in specialized performances.

Border Collies move sheep, Cattle dogs drive half wild cattle, GSDs tend sheep by acting as a living fence, Beagles bay as they trail rabbits, Labs retrieve. It's what they do. Trainers only guide and reinforce the behaviors to use them to the trainer's benefit. The trainer does not create the natural abilities.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,167 Posts
How many times would you say the issues you see are the dogs fault?
After rigorous selection in Europe, so the cards are stacked in your favor, then initial training at the kennels, I'm going to say less than 50% of the dogs will meet military requirements, and 5% will fail to meet law enforcement requirements.

This is with a team of experienced trainers and a company with vested interest in making every dog work.

These are all dog failures. Genetic issues. Lack of hunt. Lack of confidence. Nerve issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
292 Posts
If genetics weren't critical then why not go to a pound and save a life?

Dog breeds are purpose bred to genetically exhibit specific behavior traits. Form follows function. This is what gives us dog breeds capable of being highly successful in specialized performances.

Border Collies move sheep, Cattle dogs drive half wild cattle, GSDs tend sheep by acting as a living fence, Beagles bay as they trail rabbits, Labs retrieve. It's what they do. Trainers only guide and reinforce the behaviors to use them to the trainer's benefit. The trainer does not create the natural abilities.
I think of it like building a house. The genetics are the bricks or materials you have to work with. A terrible builder with the best material is still going to build a terrible house. A great builder can still give you a pretty good house with terrible materials, but even he needs something to work with. An experienced builder is also going to have his preferred materials that he does his best work with. Having the right genetics is important, otherwise you’re putting a hard cap on what you can do. I also believe after a certain point the genetics stop being what’s most important and it all comes down to training. The higher the level you want to perform at, the longer those genetics will matter. A big part of it is matching the dog to the handler and training style.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
292 Posts
If genetics weren't critical then why not go to a pound and save a life?

Dog breeds are purpose bred to genetically exhibit specific behavior traits. Form follows function. This is what gives us dog breeds capable of being highly successful in specialized performances.

Border Collies move sheep, Cattle dogs drive half wild cattle, GSDs tend sheep by acting as a living fence, Beagles bay as they trail rabbits, Labs retrieve. It's what they do. Trainers only guide and reinforce the behaviors to use them to the trainer's benefit. The trainer does not create the natural abilities.
Never said genetics weren’t critical or that they didn’t matter. It’s true you can’t create natural behaviors through training. That’s pretty contradictory.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,518 Posts
Not getting through to you. Let me try another way.

Ex. 1 Dog A was raised with love and adored. One day dog A put his owner in the hospital. When the owner finally came home, dog A tried to put her back in the hospital and succeeded.

Ex. 2 Dogs B and C escaped their yard and bit a handyman across the street. The neighbor next door to where the handyman was working heard a commotion and looked out her door. She saw what was going on and yelled: Hey! Dogs B and C ran for her. She ran into her house. Dogs B and C started to lunge up and body slam her door...for two hours until animal control could arrive.

You feel free to think that things might have been different with another trainer. Maybe that is correct. Regardless, I say those are bad dogs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shadow Shep

·
Registered
Joined
·
292 Posts
Not getting through to you. Let me try another way.

Ex. 1 Dog A was raised with love and adored. One day dog A put his owner in the hospital. When the owner finally came home, dog A tried to put her back in the hospital and succeeded.

Ex. 2 Dogs B and C escaped their yard and bit a handyman across the street. The neighbor next door to where the handyman was working heard a commotion and looked out her door. She saw what was going on and yelled: Hey! Dogs B and C ran for her. She ran into her house. Dogs B and C started to lunge up and body slam her door...for two hours until animal control could arrive.

You feel free to think that things might have been different with another trainer. Maybe that is correct. Regardless, I say those are bad dogs.
When I make the statement there are no bad dogs, that is an absolute. Absolutes are likely to be wrong. You can probably find an example of a dog I say should be put down pretty easy. Those are good examples to your point. I don’t think you read what I said though. Most issues are training related. I didn’t see those dogs or anything about them. I can’t say for certain. Would you say that scenario is more or less common than this one?
Hi guys I posted a while back about my puppy Levi things have gone from bad to worse he bit my friend and was barking non stop at him a few days later he bit my son Zack on other leg the 2 dogs were fighting and he got in the way I took my son hospital and he was prescribed antibiotics.We got a trainer in who Levi also bit he didn’t do much just overcharged me then the other day my friend offered to help train him she has some experience with dogs unfortunately it all went wrong my son told her not to pull his bed out his mouth she tried to so Levi bit her on both arms it saddens me to say this but she hit him and pushed him into the crate anyway what’s done is done I don’t think I can cope with Levi anymore I’m scared to be honest that he might really hurt someone next time .Had lots of advice from Southend dog training school and joined there Whitts app group if I could afford training classes it wouldn’t be a problem so know I have a 16 year old son crying in his room he is so attached to Levi and has been working really hard with training I don’t know what to do someone suggested I give him to the police force is that a good life for him ?its all getting so stressful and I’m worried about how my son will be if Levi goes 😢
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
349 Posts
There's only one gold in a litter, and he/she is usually the first out of the box. Occasionally you'll have a hard time picking between 2 front runners, but normally there's a clearly identifiable silver.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,518 Posts
;)
When I make the statement there are no bad dogs, that is an absolute. Absolutes are likely to be wrong. You can probably find an example of a dog I say should be put down pretty easy. Those are good examples to your point. I don’t think you read what I said though. Most issues are training related. I didn’t see those dogs or anything about them. I can’t say for certain. Would you say that scenario is more or less common than this one?
I am not in disagreement that there are plenty of incompetent owners. It is one of the reasons I am so vocal against the use of aversives.... for wanting instant fixes for something that someone inadvertently trained for months or maybe longer. ;)

But I am still adamant that there are a lot of bad dogs regardless of the trainer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shadow Shep

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,518 Posts
  • Like
Reactions: Shadow Shep

·
Registered
Joined
·
292 Posts
;)

I am not in disagreement that there are plenty of incompetent owners. It is one of the reasons I am so vocal against the use of aversives.... for wanting instant fixes for something that someone inadvertently trained for months or maybe longer. ;)

But I am still adamant that there are a lot of bad dogs regardless of the trainer.
My definition of a bad dog: a dog that cannot thrive amongst humans in any venue regardless of training, upbringing or handling. That I would say, is pretty rare. Bad owners, I’d say they are quite common. Bad trainers, those are too. I had one give me a card once.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,518 Posts
My definition of a bad dog: a dog that cannot thrive amongst humans in any venue regardless of training, upbringing or handling. That I would say, is pretty rare. Bad owners, I’d say they are quite common. Bad trainers, those are too. I had one give me a card once.
I understand what you are saying but disagree. There are bad owners but there are a LOT of bad dogs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,518 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,518 Posts
  • Like
Reactions: Shadow Shep
541 - 560 of 682 Posts
Top