German Shepherds Forum banner

21 - 40 of 682 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,321 Posts
There is no need for herding these days. Plus, the true herding stock had genetic obedience and any modern day BYB GSD’s that can “herd” are a far cry from the original herding stock. That is my point. People often can’t recognize true working ability and IGP in particular adds to the problem by selecting for sport traits rather than working traits.
There is no need for ratters anymore but terriers abound, ratting instinct intact.
Maybe some folks don't recognize work ability but having spent a fair bit of time with real stock dogs I consider myself able. The German Shepherd Dog is supposed to be an all around dog and it is that herding instinct that makes them so well rounded. The loss of it will irreversibly alter the breed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #22 (Edited)
BYB’ers are not the savior of the breed. Geneticist Malcolm Willis has research that supported heritability of schutzhund scores was meaningless. So many people talk about having dogs health tested and IGP titles. How much of HD is heritable? The ability to improve the breed lies in very knowledgeable trainers who also breed and know what results are due to genetics vs. training. Also, the prevalence of breeding GSD’s as pets is detrimental. All you have to do is read the posts on this forum and see the volume of poorly bred dogs and unskilled handlers. If you dilute the formula to accommodate pet owners and politically correct dogs you see a decline in the breed. That does not mean all GSD’s should be dominant, hard ass dogs that require “professional” handlers, but it comes close. It has become a snowflake issue.
Wow, I have owned working dogs for over 30 years, and have seen what "reputable breeders" have done with breeds like APBT, for instance. (Moderators I am not promoting a breed) Those formerly "sound" dogs are basically extinct for a number of temperament factors, due to professional breeders and handlers, and in the 1980s I owned 4. Currently, I have two expensive Rough Collies with significant health issues, each purchased at high prices from professional breeders. And let's not forget GSD lines that walk on their hocks due to over angulation and roach backs. How about the diminutive sized dogs that roll out after enough line-breeding? And you know what? All those aspects were the brilliant results of - yep, you guessed it - professional breeders and trainers. I think maybe by using the term BYB you are referring to indiscriminate breeders, who have no desire to uphold and further the GSD breed. That (unfortunately) also occurs in many professional breeding programs. To me, an ethical breeder is the one that supports the breed standards, and strives for as many characteristics as possible based on the original goals of the breed. That happens to also include dogs that are good pets as GSD. There are plenty of dogs (SL/WL) that are so overly compartmentalized genetically, they will likely add to the deterioration of the breed without out-crossing. Now, I criticized "roach backed" GSD. I personally think they look kinda neat, as well as the ASL slope backs. But truthfully, I would not opt to buy one because I prefer a square framed dog - as do many working line owners, regardless of breed. That's just me, but if I adopted a SL dog of either flavor I would care for it like every other dog I own. I really never met a dog I didn't like. I just would not breed that one.

This discussion is about my dog's pedigree and one of her ancestors origination. That's it. Berno and Sabis mom have offered thoughtful comments about genetic pool diversity and the merits of that. And I agree with that based on three decades of purebred dogs and the realization that phrases like "full blooded" and "professional breeder" "line-bred" do not always equate to stellar dogs. If there is one unfortunate thing about this forum, it is that investigative conversations seem to get attacked by someone ascribing all GSD faults to backyard breeders. Are there people breeding poor dogs out there? Yes and It is not helpful to the breed. Are they always BYBs -nope.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #23
There is no need for ratters anymore but terriers abound, ratting instinct intact.
Maybe some folks don't recognize work ability but having spent a fair bit of time with real stock dogs I consider myself able. The German Shepherd Dog is supposed to be an all around dog and it is that herding instinct that makes them so well rounded. The loss of it will irreversibly alter the breed.
Come to think of it, there are a lot of joggers, but we've had cars for quite a while now ; )
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #24
There is no need for herding these days. Plus, the true herding stock had genetic obedience and any modern day BYB GSD’s that can “herd” are a far cry from the original herding stock. That is my point. People often can’t recognize true working ability and IGP in particular adds to the problem by selecting for sport traits rather than working traits.
What exactly are you saying friend? If I look at all your comments, you seem to think heritability of Schutzhund scores is meaningless, health test are meaningless, herding is meaningless, but temperament that causes a dog to be a good pet is "detrimental"? Here's an article on prepotency and filial degeneration that may help. Genes are a matter of probability. If they were not, "professional breeders" would never had linebred or inbred at all.

PREPOTENCY AND FILIAL DEGENERATION

Obviously titles are earned on ability and not every pup in a litter gets every trait of every ancestor, but that's why littler sibling/progeny studies help to see consistency of a breeding. I didn't buy my dog based on the number of titles in her lineage. But they are there, and her intelligence, instincts and drives are quite nice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #25

SZ 2 (SHSB 1672)

I see hints of dobe from before dobe even existed. Before the pincher/schnauzer split. I don't doubt dobe DNA has influenced gsd many times, but I'm confident gsd played a starring role in dobe foundation stock to begin with.


have a look at SZ 4's pedigree

the founders inbred like MAD and traded offspring back and forth amongst themselves


SZ 114

v stephanitz book illustrates a wide variety of "gsd" types, as well as other breeds, not to mention wolf crosses; yet dobe and airedale are conspicuously absent... IMO this may call the author's... "accuracy" into question...
there's actually a photo of an airedale on pg 127 he identifies as "rough haired german shepherd of wurttemburg." At the very height of the airedale boom...
I'd say that's his story and he's sticking to it lol. Very interesting stuff for sure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,310 Posts
True herding stock is gone due to the SV pressuring low income people who depended on their dogs for their herding abilities to breed their herding stock to the high lines in order to get more money for pups and to promote the SV’s agenda. Even though heritability is low based on schutzhund scores, it became the SV’s gold standard and was progressively watered down to accommodate the high line dogs and the financial factor. IGP has become a joke in terms of assessing a dog’s genetics. Line breeding currently has little genetic impact vs. the traits of a breeding pair. Titled dogs are more likely to reflect a dog inconsistent with the breed’s working heritage. The SV claims HD is only 25% genetic. What do you chose to believe? Training is more of a factor than genetics in terms of IGP titles especially if you look at the level the titles were obtained.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
353 Posts
This discussion is about my dog's pedigree and one of her ancestors origination. That's it.
re-reading pg 1, I'm the one who derailed this thread. I always do. Sorry :)

I don't know Chip, I don't always agree with Chip, and he never agrees with me. Nevertheless I respect Chip because his handler/trainer credentials are self evident, and years ago he mentored a couple other breed guys who later went on to mentor me in other breeds. I'm not trying to be cryptic, I just don't want to muddy up the gsd forums with non-gsd stuff.
Chip is not a big talker. He doesn't say much. My goal is to coax as much info out of him as I'm able. Most of it goes over my head, but I do my best. Anyway, my point, with Chip it's never personal. It's not about thumbs ups or follows or friends. It's strictly about the dogs and the work, or the lack thereof. So I don't bother trying to explain or justify or defend, because Chip ain't got time for that, and even if he did, he just doesn't care :D

I glean whatever I can, and let the rest melt like snowflakes off a duck's back; but speaking of collie (see there? I'm doing it again!)...


when I look real close, I'm pretty sure this is a photoshop...

you are apparently familiar with rough collie so I'm curious as to your thoughts about any genetic relationship possibly shared between tervuren/groenendael and collie



interesting gsd x collie photos
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #28
re-reading pg 1, I'm the one who derailed this thread. I always do. Sorry :)

I don't know Chip, I don't always agree with Chip, and he never agrees with me. Nevertheless I respect Chip because his handler/trainer credentials are self evident, and years ago he mentored a couple other breed guys who later went on to mentor me in other breeds. I'm not trying to be cryptic, I just don't want to muddy up the gsd forums with non-gsd stuff.
Chip is not a big talker. He doesn't say much. My goal is to coax as much info out of him as I'm able. Most of it goes over my head, but I do my best. Anyway, my point, with Chip it's never personal. It's not about thumbs ups or follows or friends. It's strictly about the dogs and the work, or the lack thereof. So I don't bother trying to explain or justify or defend, because Chip ain't got time for that, and even if he did, he just doesn't care :D

I glean whatever I can, and let the rest melt like snowflakes off a duck's back; but speaking of collie (see there? I'm doing it again!)...


when I look real close, I'm pretty sure this is a photoshop...

you are apparently familiar with rough collie so I'm curious as to your thoughts about any genetic relationship possibly shared between tervuren/groenendael and collie



interesting gsd x collie photos
Could be -I really can't say, as the history I've found references various generalized, nondescript dogs as the founding stock. As I understand, like with Malinois/Tervuren/Belgian Shepherd stocks, there were variations in the founding Scottish dogs and then later refinements (including Borzoi) to distinguish them. As far as the old Scottish Collie being mixed with the Belgian dogs, it eludes my eye when looking at current dogs-which means absolutely nothing. A better trained eye/more informed fancier may see it. If I had to do it all over again, I would have put much more vetting into the Collies hystory before buying. I was just busy (career) and naive enough back then that I assumed price and pedigree was always synonymous with health.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #29
re-reading pg 1, I'm the one who derailed this thread. I always do. Sorry :)

I don't know Chip, I don't always agree with Chip, and he never agrees with me. Nevertheless I respect Chip because his handler/trainer credentials are self evident, and years ago he mentored a couple other breed guys who later went on to mentor me in other breeds. I'm not trying to be cryptic, I just don't want to muddy up the gsd forums with non-gsd stuff.
Chip is not a big talker. He doesn't say much. My goal is to coax as much info out of him as I'm able. Most of it goes over my head, but I do my best. Anyway, my point, with Chip it's never personal. It's not about thumbs ups or follows or friends. It's strictly about the dogs and the work, or the lack thereof. So I don't bother trying to explain or justify or defend, because Chip ain't got time for that, and even if he did, he just doesn't care :D

I glean whatever I can, and let the rest melt like snowflakes off a duck's back; but speaking of collie (see there? I'm doing it again!)...


when I look real close, I'm pretty sure this is a photoshop...

you are apparently familiar with rough collie so I'm curious as to your thoughts about any genetic relationship possibly shared between tervuren/groenendael and collie



interesting gsd x collie photos
Yeah, the Shollies are sometimes pretty, but other times not lol. My wife keeps nudging me to let that happen and I tell her she's lost her mind. Talk about opening a can of worms : [ Honestly, as far as all this genetic depletion is concerned, I believe there are plenty of opportunities to better the breed within its own remaining lines. Or, someone could infuse something else and breed back to GSD until it is again considered purebred GSD. I'm sure the breeding police will converge on me at this point lol.

The Volkosoby is off limits but if it ever got exported, it already has primarily GSD. Tough fellas.

Then there's the Russian Wolfhound, that someone could look at:

Come to think of it it looks an awful lot like Benjamin V. Westendorf. Things that make ya go huuuuuuuum.
560987
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #30
True herding stock is gone due to the SV pressuring low income people who depended on their dogs for their herding abilities to breed their herding stock to the high lines in order to get more money for pups and to promote the SV’s agenda. Even though heritability is low based on schutzhund scores, it became the SV’s gold standard and was progressively watered down to accommodate the high line dogs and the financial factor. IGP has become a joke in terms of assessing a dog’s genetics. Line breeding currently has little genetic impact vs. the traits of a breeding pair. Titled dogs are more likely to reflect a dog inconsistent with the breed’s working heritage. The SV claims HD is only 25% genetic. What do you chose to believe? Training is more of a factor than genetics in terms of IGP titles especially if you look at the level the titles were obtained.
Whatever the disposition of the breed's gene pool, I do appreciate that people are looking at it. Incidentally, as you probably know, the GSD genome has been mapped (Australia) and apparently has 2.8 billion base pairs remaining today. I'd say that's good news. First complete German shepherd DNA offers new tool to fight disease
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
How many different dogs were used to create the GSD before they closed the studbook? And isn´t all GSD going back to similar dogs anyway regardless which country or breeder the come from, so what can you really do except avoiding letting certian dogs get to infleuntal in the breedings if genetic diversity is a problem in the breed?

Chip, I suppose the majority of breeders don´t think best points is a sign of the best breeding dog, on the other hand if perfect IGP scores is something certain breeders think is important I guess they are intressted in those dogs that have the genetic ability to score very high in all phases of the sport.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
353 Posts
Yeah, the Shollies are sometimes pretty, but other times not lol. My wife keeps nudging me to let that happen and I tell her she's lost her mind. Talk about opening a can of worms
I intend to cross a gsd sire x collie and/or collie types (bc/acd/et al)

Honestly, as far as all this genetic depletion is concerned, I believe there are plenty of opportunities to better the breed within its own remaining lines.
I hope you're right

Or, someone could infuse something else and breed back to GSD until it is again considered purebred GSD.
I'm sure I'll do some backcrossing, but I'm really not sure just how much...

if you're into the wolf mythology, I suggest a serious look at the origins of the czech wolfdog. I assume you're fully aware just how much czech gsd ("z") your dog has in his ped. EDIT: quick second look shows less than I thought; but in looks, to me, he definitely takes after the "Z ps" in his ped.

so what can you really do except avoiding letting certian dogs get to infleuntal in the breedings if genetic diversity is a problem in the breed?
doing so only shrinks the genepool further now

the modern bottlenecks are easy to find. Pick a pedigree, any pedigree, EVERY pedigree, and you'll find yourself staring at the same sire within 7 clicks (in most cases much sooner)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #33
Yeah, I don't know what to think of the Czech Wolfdog. To me it structurally looks a lot like these Blue Bay Shepherds. Very leggy and long muzzled. That's a very interesting read you sent. And yes on the Czech background for Rey. Maybe that's where she got her Irish temperament : )
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #35 (Edited)
Thank you for that - I get the impression you have been with this breed a while, so I appreciate your input. She (Rey) is probably my most favorite dog ever. She is pretty much all the positive lore you can read about the breed. Sensitive and gentle to play with (most of the time), follows me like my shadow, refuses to retrieve (she only brings the ball back to me then turns to evade me so I'll chase her ). On the flip side she is an incredible guard dog for our home, and exhibits discerning defense drive. We went thru obedience training with a K9 officer locally and he seemed to think she was pretty smart (he thought I needed more work lol). Started her on rudimentary scent work and she seems to be on it. So for my first GSD purchase, I got kind of lucky I guess, or maybe they're all just this fun? I hope to have her hips/elbows checked after August, when she's over 24 mos. How many do you own and do your experiences sound like mine?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,321 Posts
Thank you for that - I get the impression you have been with this breed a while, so I appreciate your input. She (Rey) is probably my most favorite dog ever. She is pretty much all the positive lore you can read about the breed. Sensitive and gentle to play with (most of the time), follows me like my shadow, refuses to retrieve (she only brings the ball back to me then turns to evade me so I'll chase her ). On the flip side she is an incredible guard dog for our home, and exhibits discerning defense drive. We went thru obedience training with a K9 officer locally and he seemed to think she was pretty smart (he thought I needed more work lol). Started her on rudimentary scent work and she seems to be on it. So for my first GSD purchase, I got kind of lucky I guess, or maybe they're all just this fun? I hope to have her hips/elbows checked after August, when she's over 24 mos. How many do you own and do your experiences sound like mine?
I spent a decade or more running a GSD rescue. I have very little experience with well bred shepherds, most of it being with one line selected by my former employer for their work ability.
My most amazing Sabi was in fact a BYB dog and was everything a good German Shepherd should be, except healthy.
She could do it all. She served as my patrol partner for many years, trained for personal protection, building searches, narcotics detection and crowd control. She swung effortlessly between jobs and was a full time pet as well. Easily the most discerning dog I have ever met with amazing protective instincts and not a mean bone in her body. She saved my life at least twice. She was intelligent beyond measure, adored children and baby animals and was always up for a good time. She was also clearly convinced I was an idiot and in need of much help.
She was over sized, and thick boned. She also had awful hips, was sterile before I got her spayed and I ultimately lost her to DM.
I currently have my little genetic nightmare, Shadow who is getting older. I will be purchasing a pup in the future and I know exactly what I am looking for.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
353 Posts
everything a good German Shepherd should be, except healthy.
That's my singular criticism, concern, whatever. I stepped away 30+ yrs ago due to breed health and began dabbling in other breeds. I learned that neither genetic health issues nor genetic obedience are limited to gsd.

Overall gsd type has changed quite a bit in that time. Where did the old fashioned usa byb gsd go? Where did the old fashioned usa white gsd go? Where did the pure ddr lines go? I can't help wonder if perhaps they weren't "played out" along the way? Common sense suggests die hard ddr devotees didn't cross their beloved bloodlines without very good reason.

so what do you think of [bill bethme]?
At a glance? DOB 1991, 6/8 czech. Paternal grandsire descends from SZ 640721 ('47). Maternal grandsire descends from SZ 739163 ('49). Still the "usual suspects" but a refreshingly diverse ped. Nice one! If only it was 1991 again, right? Cheers, Sabis Mom!!
Paternal grand dam dead ends appx 1970. Maternal grand dam dead ends appx 1966. Smells a little wolfy in here all of a sudden, maybe? :) In my mind the czech lines are a little elusive. They documented significant outcrosses (1950's - 1970's), but they used ddr foundations, and now those lines come full circle back to ddr and/or admixtures thereof. That's not a criticism, only an observation (clock is ticking).

As for me and the collie thing, I don't know? I have one eye on a late summer/early fall tervuren litter, but there's a bunch of malinois in the ped, and it seems to me there's enough gsdxbsdxdsdxgsd going on already. Something like this is somewhat tempting. I'm not at all opposed to "jumpstarting" with a backcross (6/8 out of the gate.) Or perhaps something like this, but the sire MUST be gsd (so that one is a no go).

I kind of feel like I should do something a little less... conventional? There are lots of amish/menonite/hutterite proven working herding crosses and herd/guard crosses around. I'd intended to pick one up earlier this year, but then a little gsd pup showed up... and here I am...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
353 Posts
There is no need for herding these days.
I'll agree there is currently very little need for herding... but when you look at the arc of postindustrial civilization... you know, "road warrior world" and all that... just kidding. I hope.

Plus, the true herding stock had genetic obedience and any modern day BYB GSD’s that can “herd” are a far cry from the original herding stock.
Genetic obedience may be found in other breeds, and we can't really talk herding without qualifying "continental herding style" vs "herding trials." Apples and oranges.

True herding stock is gone
the key to true gsd (aka "continential" aka "living fence") herding style is imprinting from 3-16 weeks. I assert that because my "random sample" gsd pup can herd correctly, nearly any young enough gsd pup may be imprinted and trained to herd correctly. It's not rocket science. Correct gsd herding style is about as exciting as watching paint dry. The dog just hangs out. Keep the stock out of the road, keep an eye out for predators, and don't act like a border collie.

Training is more of a factor than genetics in terms of IGP titles especially if you look at the level the titles were obtained.
Agreed, but that's a dual edged sword. For example, would it matter to you if DNA analyses revealed your dog's maternal great grand dam was a gsd/black lab mix? 1/16 black lab? It certainly wouldn't matter to me, and I absolutely guarantee it wouldn't make a bit of difference to a bad guy on the wrong end of your leash :D

I love you, man. Just sayin.

lately I find myself wondering just how many generations has it been since one of my pup's ancestors was raised outside of a climate controlled environment? It'll be interesting to see what sort of undercoat he develops over the next 6 months
 
21 - 40 of 682 Posts
Top