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Discussion Starter #1
I have a 4 generation pedigree on my dog and cannot find much information on one of the dogs/breeders further back on the dam side. The dog is Perlich's Duke and I assume the breeder is Perlich. "Duke" appears twice if I trace that back thru the pedigree database online so I assume he had some good strengths. There are a couple other dogs from Perlich as well, so I tend to think there was a breeding program of some sort.

I'm interested to know if anyone has any information on Perlich's dogs? I can't find pictures or other real information of any Perlich dogs online. Thanks for any info you may have.
 

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I don't know perlich, but I recognize a good number of names from 30 something yrs ago. I wouldn't call perlich a line, but there are some very fine old lines behind perlich peds.

If you hang around long enough you'll see the phrase "back yard breeders may hold the key to the future of the breed" bandied about on a regular basis. From what I'm able to piece together, perlich peds illustrate that theory. In other words, no popular sire's and none of the "working line" usual suspects.

I've been hunting HARD for 7 months, and those old lines appear to be all but gone, primarily due to introgression.

Can I see some more photos of your dog? Looks like a very interesting study.
 

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Yes, I will need to take a current picture of her at 22 months. On her dam's side she also has Yates of the Southland, and sire side has Big Bear Paw (sire) off of Benjamin Vom Westendorf. Those branches of the family are impressive looking and I know Benjamin has a brother that is popular. I'll try to get a pic posted by tonight. I regard my dog's pedigree as open, but with some really good herritage, which is why I wanted to see some of Perlich's dogs. Appreciate your response!

As for conformation of my dog, she sits 25" at the withers now, without being overly leggy, and just over 80 pounds.
 

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there are some pedigree's online.


Those name are very much American names. There is a WG working line in the 5th gen.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
there are some pedigree's online.


Those name are very much American names. There is a WG working line in the 5th gen.
Awesome-thanks Jax08. That is what I have as well aside from my AKC pedigree. Wish I could see pics of that leg of the pedigree : )
 

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Discussion Starter #8
there are some pedigree's online.


Those name are very much American names. There is a WG working line in the 5th gen.
Also, I inadvertently misstated Perlich's Duke as being in her pedigree more than once. It was actually Perlich's Socks (sire) who appears on both sides of Dukes lineage, mated to two different dams, which were also Perlich dogs. I guess the advent of iPhone and digital cameras made it more convenient at some point to enter dog's pictures. Thank goodness not everyone was lazy in getting pictures throughout the breed's history, when all we had was film lol.
 

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I'd guess the main thing impeding your research are spelling errors in the database. Some stuff get's lost in translation, other times it's simply a typo. Akc will sell you a certified 5 gen ped (great grands). Do you have the names of your dog's parent's handy? Sire and dam?
 

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Yes, I have a 4 generation pedigree already from AKC, that came with my registration. Big Bear Paw is the sire (but not listed on online pedigree database as far as I can find) and Dam is Zoe Juliet or Zimmerman's Zoe Juliet (I'll have to get it out of a file cabinet to be sure). I don't know that either of those dogs are currently listed online, other than AKC, unless they are under different names, as you suggest. I appreciate your feedback! Whatever her background, I can honestly say she's the most impressive dog I've owned. Smart, moderate to high drives, but very manageable and sweet.
 

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I'd guess the main thing impeding your research are spelling errors in the database. Some stuff get's lost in translation, other times it's simply a typo. Akc will sell you a certified 5 gen ped (great grands). Do you have the names of your dog's parent's handy? Sire and dam?
I am curious about your concern of "introgression" as my understanding of that is to blend disparate sets of genetics, like a dog and a wolf. I may have a misunderstanding of that term, however. Are you concerned about mixtures of ASL/WGSL/WL or are you suggesting other breeds of dogs, or something altogether apart from the GSD gene pool? I don't have a dog in the fight (pardon the pun : ) but I, myself, tend to like the pictures of dogs between the 1930s and mid 1960s better than most GSD produced today. It's intersting that if you view GSDs from the 1920s, many have muzzles like the modern Doberman Pinscher, and that was well into the founder's influence of structure, if I'm not mistaken.
 

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my comment re; introgression related specifically to perlich duke. Those old "usa byb type" lines, and the genetic diversity they represented, appear to have been crossed and backcrossed out of existence now. That's what I've been hunting, and I'm just not finding them.


in any event, this is a textbook example of what a real gsd is supposed to look like, and the wall to wall working titles behind southland and westendorf speak for themselves

don't ever let anybody tell you different :)
 

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Discussion Starter #14
my comment re; introgression related specifically to perlich duke. Those old "usa byb type" lines, and the genetic diversity they represented, appear to have been crossed and backcrossed out of existence now. That's what I've been hunting, and I'm just not finding them.




in any event, this is a textbook example of what a real gsd is supposed to look like, and the wall to wall working titles behind southland and westendorf speak for themselves

don't ever let anybody tell you different :)
Thanks so much! This is my first GSD, but I have had pedigreed Rough Collies and Sheltis over the last 16 years. All had/have issues and were expensive dogs at the time. So, I am learning to "learn" all I can so I hopefully get healthier dogs going forward.

You probably would have liked Nikita, who is my dog's grandmother and a daughter of Duke. She's 10 years now, and was on the yard when I bought Rey. They had retired her from breeding by 2018.
 

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It's intersting that if you view GSDs from the 1920s, many have muzzles like the modern Doberman Pinscher, and that was well into the founder's influence of structure, if I'm not mistaken.

SZ 2 (SHSB 1672)

I see hints of dobe from before dobe even existed. Before the pincher/schnauzer split. I don't doubt dobe DNA has influenced gsd many times, but I'm confident gsd played a starring role in dobe foundation stock to begin with.


have a look at SZ 4's pedigree

the founders inbred like MAD and traded offspring back and forth amongst themselves


SZ 114

v stephanitz book illustrates a wide variety of "gsd" types, as well as other breeds, not to mention wolf crosses; yet dobe and airedale are conspicuously absent... IMO this may call the author's... "accuracy" into question...
there's actually a photo of an airedale on pg 127 he identifies as "rough haired german shepherd of wurttemburg." At the very height of the airedale boom...
 

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BYB’ers are not the savior of the breed. Geneticist Malcolm Willis has research that supported heritability of schutzhund scores was meaningless. So many people talk about having dogs health tested and IGP titles. How much of HD is heritable? The ability to improve the breed lies in very knowledgeable trainers who also breed and know what results are due to genetics vs. training. Also, the prevalence of breeding GSD’s as pets is detrimental. All you have to do is read the posts on this forum and see the volume of poorly bred dogs and unskilled handlers. If you dilute the formula to accommodate pet owners and politically correct dogs you see a decline in the breed. That does not mean all GSD’s should be dominant, hard ass dogs that require “professional” handlers, but it comes close. It has become a snowflake issue.
 

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BYB’ers are not the savior of the breed.
The point is that in a good many lines valuable traits have been completely lost by selectively breeding for others. In some instances the dogs in the hands of lesser breeders or BYB's possess those traits that have been all but lost. A good many knowledgeable people have theorized that it may come to pass that the "lost" genetics are alive and thriving in dogs we may not expect. I can tell you, for example, that a startling number of my rescues possessed very strong herding ability. The lines have also been less "honed" toward the sharpness so desirable in sport. Remember the breed is supposed to be a jack of all trades, not a master of one. Safe around children was the original vision, as was safe around other animals(farm dog). Able to move between herder, hunter and guardian with ease.
Also consider the gross genetic bottlenecks that have been created. Linebreeding was never meant to be used for untold generations. It was meant to solidify traits.
 

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BYB’ers are not the savior of the breed.
as much as I want to disagree, I am not able to at this time. I've looked high and low and I'm just not finding the usa byb gsd type that was so common, prior to german reunification. A few very old, very well known "holdout" breeders remain, solely focused on the companion market ("old style" neither bred for show nor work) but to my eye even their lines have diverged beyond recognition now...



bear in mind that until nearly the turn of the last century, MWD's were BYB's



Geneticist Malcolm Willis has research that supported heritability of schutzhund scores was meaningless.
There's a best in every litter, and proper rearing/conditioning early on is critical. Linebreed on best and you'll get better. I very much appreciate the modern "working type," but if I'm being perfectly brutally honest, I fear it may be overrated in the minds of some enthusiasts, and I know it underperforms vs another breed or 2 nowdays...

no offense intended :)
 

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Linebreeding was never meant to be used for untold generations. It was meant to solidify traits.
I assert a handful of individual kennels selecting and linebreeding a few generations in house may create genetic diversity, but I'm beginning to suspect they may have to begin by outcrossing without kennel club oversight in order to restore some real agility

gsd "movement" may have started out a good theory, but $omewhere along the way thing$ went horribly wrong...
 

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There is no need for herding these days. Plus, the true herding stock had genetic obedience and any modern day BYB GSD’s that can “herd” are a far cry from the original herding stock. That is my point. People often can’t recognize true working ability and IGP in particular adds to the problem by selecting for sport traits rather than working traits.
 
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